This was first reported on SOWNY June 27th and you can see the post here.

And yes, CHIN has submitted an application to the CRTC for this, which is linked at the original post. You won't be able to access the document until Monday, though. The CRTC's website is down for maintenance until the beginning of the week. 
 

mace wrote:

They also said the CHML towers would not be used.

I believe a different post previously on SOWNY had mentioned that the towers were already dismantled.  I could be wrong.

Last edited by Easily Amused (August 24, 2025 8:05 am)

tvguy wrote:

So it wouldn't clearly reach the Hamilton area then?

Last edited by km93 (August 25, 2025 12:31 pm)

Some info you may not know.  They lost their 50kw transmission site on Toronto Island, because the towers were in an area being rebuilt for the City of Toronto's water purification plant.  So they moved the transmitter out to the Orangeville area and co-sited on the land owned by Dufferin Communications (Evanov) where 530 CHLO transmits from.  The transmitter is authorized for temporary operation at 19,000 watts daytime only and  is so far outside of the City of Toronto that there have been reception problems. They have to power down at that site at night to protect other stations on 1540.   Meaning no night time service currently on 1540 - from CHIN. The move of the (new) transmitter  location to the Don Valley & Lawrence area I'm told has two benefits.  the 900 frequency is virtually interference free at night, so the lower night time power on the lower 900 frequency can deliver good service within the City of Toronto and suburbs.   Daytime at 900 watts, on a non-directional antenna will provide adequate service as well.  Bear in mind this is a very inexpensive solution, versus land costs and building out a massive multi tower site - not that there is land available at a reasonable cost.  They already have 91.9 as a FM repeater for 1540 - which accords very good service in the toronto area, particularly because I believe the transmitter is located in the North West part of the city.  With AM on the decline, including ethnic radio revenue, it is probably a very wise solution.  It is not intended to reach Hamilton.  Hamilton still has other viable AM frequencies - just in case someone is insane enough to apply for a "new" AM service.  Neeti Ray has applied to re-locate 1650 to the CKOC transmitter site south west of Hamilton (N. Caledonia) should be be approved to swap the CINA 1650 frequency for 820 CHAM's frequency at the CHAM transmitter site.

Last edited by tvguy (August 25, 2025 1:31 pm)

tvguy wrote:

Neeti Ray has applied to re-locate 1650 to the CKOC transmitter site south west of Hamilton (N. Caledonia) should be be approved to swap the CINA 1650 frequency for 820 CHAM's frequency at the CHAM transmitter site.

Not sure what you mean...

Saul wrote:

tvguy wrote:

Neeti Ray has applied to re-locate 1650 to the CKOC transmitter site south west of Hamilton (N. Caledonia) should be be approved to swap the CINA 1650 frequency for 820 CHAM's frequency at the CHAM transmitter site.

Not sure what you mean...

Well one person seems question whether CHIN will serve Hamilton.  AM in Hamilton is not viable...so the 900 frequency was surrendered by Corus.  That means it can be used elsewhere.  The only thing the CRTC was concerned about - see the CHIN deficiency questions is whether there is an alternative AM frequency that could be used to serve Hamilton - (if someone was insane - my words) to invest in a new AM service for the City of Hamilton. . But wait.....there's also a 2nd AM frequency switch underway in hamilton.  Basically Neeti Ray bought 820 CHAM from Bell and committed to retain English language programming on the station to serve Hamilton.  How he's applied to swap the ethnic programming from CINA 1650 to 820 CHAM - licensed to serve Mississauga (but operating out of Etobicoke) and re-establish a Hamilton radio service on 1650 KHz from a transmitter site in Caledonia, a year or more after the swap.   Readers of this board will remember that Mr. Ray stopped english language programming on CHAM 820 in the summer of 2024 and turned CHAM 820 into "Big 820" all Punjabi music.   He IDs 820...often as CINA, even though the legal call sign of CINA is the 1650 station..  Has anyone heard a call sign CHAM on 820 in the past year?  I haven't.   Confused?  Go to the CRTC's "Part 1 Applications Closed" at 

 https://applications.crtc.gc.ca/portail-portal/eng/listes-lists/public-proceedings/18?_ga=2.153361016.1777741807.1756134865-264123918.1755618927

The application identified as "1760791 Ontario Inc. Amendment to technical parameters of CINA Mississauga, Ontario". and click on interventions.  There is an intervention by the Coalition of Toronto CMA Market Ethnic Broadcasters which lays out the what Mr. Ray is trying to do.   I was trying to upload the intervention but am having problems with the SOWNY site.
 

Last edited by tvguy (August 25, 2025 1:50 pm)

Apples and oranges - so to speak.   Corus - lots of land, big transmitter site, lots of towers and directional signal to protect other stations under the treaty - day and night.   This is a "single" tower setup on a tiny bit of land----a parking lot.   Corus=many acres worth $$$$.   Corus - huge land taxes, huge site maintenance costs and tens of thousands of dollars a yaer of electrical engery costs - just not viable in 2025.

Versus:  CHIN - a small antenna on a small parking lot, --- leased for a few $ a year.  Virtually nothing in electrical utiltiy costs versus Corus $$$$$$.    perhaps SKYWAVE can comment but when an AM "whip" antenna - such as a Valcom antenna, is used in a populated urban area, there are Safety Code 6 considerations vis-a-vis permitted RF levels.   The site is on a parking lot at a church.

It appears that 900 watts on 900 KHz will "do the job" just fine, at a reasonable cost.  Don't forget this is an ethnic radio service so the listenership to any language is a niche audience. 

Last edited by tvguy (August 25, 2025 1:58 pm)

RadioActive wrote:

That is an excellent summary, expect for this sentence, one of my pet peeves I've mentioned before.

tvguy wrote:

They already have 91.9 as a FM repeater for 1540 - which accords very good service in the toronto area, particularly because I believe the transmitter is located in the North West part of the city.

91.9 was supposed to be solely a repeater of 1540, but somehow they convinced the CRTC to allow them to operate it as an entirely separate station. Originally, it carried all of 1540 programming. Then they only carried the output of the AM at night, when the power made their original signal very weak. And finally, they completely abandoned the AM rebroadcast altogether and started selling time for shows completely separate from their other outlets, effectively giving Toronto 3 CHINs.

I know it's legal but it's also wrong - that wasn't the original point of 91.9 and they finagled their way around it, with CRTC approval. That frequency could have been used for something else, to add to the formats available in Toronto. Instead, CHIN sneaked their way into getting a third station in the city. Never sat right with me. 
 

Unless someone complains...the CRTC will do nothing.  They don't follow the Big Yellow Board.  To my knowledge a couple of broadcasters may have written to the CRTC or provided comments at the time of a power increase for 91.9,  and the CRTC staff did not care.  And since no "member of the public" wrote in or called, as Trump would say, you could shoot a guy in the middle of 5th Avenue and get away with it.

RA do you "wanna" complain? because no one in Gatineau is watching this posting.

On the flip side, if you own a radio station and get embroiled in a "Self Assessment Report" the CRTC staff will rake you over the coals and make life hell if a song played by your automation system in part before/after midnight and your CANCON calculation generated by your computer, was off by a decimal point.  I know from experience.

Last edited by tvguy (August 25, 2025 3:27 pm)

RadioActive wrote:

tvguy wrote:

RadioActive wrote:

That is an excellent summary, expect for this sentence, one of my pet peeves I've mentioned before.

91.9 was supposed to be solely a repeater of 1540, but somehow they convinced the CRTC to allow them to operate it as an entirely separate station. Originally, it carried all of 1540 programming. Then they only carried the output of the AM at night, when the power made their original signal very weak. And finally, they completely abandoned the AM rebroadcast altogether and started selling time for shows completely separate from their other outlets, effectively giving Toronto 3 CHINs.


I know it's legal but it's also wrong - that wasn't the original point of 91.9 and they finagled their way around it, with CRTC approval. That frequency could have been used for something else, to add to the formats available in Toronto. Instead, CHIN sneaked their way into getting a third station in the city. Never sat right with me. 
 

Unless someone complains...the CRTC will do nothing.  They don't follow the Big Yellow Board.  To my knowledge a couple of broadcasters may have written to the CRTC or provided comments at the time of a power increase for 91.9,  and the CRTC staff did not care.  And since no "member of the public" wrote in or called, as Trump would say, you could shoot a guy in the middle of 5th Avenue and get away with it.

RA do you "wanna" complain? because no one in Gatineau is watching this posting.

On the flip side, if you own a radio station and get embroiled in a "Self Assessment Report" the CRTC staff will rake you over the coals and make life hell if a song played by your automation system in part before/after midnight and your CANCON calculation generated by your computer, was off by a decimal point.  I know from experience.

From my admittedly dim memory, the CRTC pretty much gives CHIN a pass on almost everything. They don't want to be accused of anything depending on which ethnic group might think they were under attack by a government agency. 

IIRC, they did get permission to take over the frequency fulltime, but there were no hearings and no public consultations made to others to claim the spot on the dial before CHIN got it. 

Not to be "pissy" but this CHIN rebroadcast transmitter goes back to the "last century".  It was on 101.3 back in the last century.  Then when the CRTC licensed Canadian Multicultural Radio aka CMA, CHIN lost the rebroadcast frequency for CHIN AM and then applied for 91.9 at low power.  They got that frequency.  Then over a period of years they applied for more power.  It was a public process EVERY STEP OF THE WAY!!!!.   They got 35 watts initially in 2003 on 91.9. There was probably another appllication that I haven't identified. They went from 161 watts to around 1850 watts in 2011.  A few years later they applied for the 5 kw max ERP.  Then a few years later they applied for the ability to run separate programming (in other words part-time rebroadcaster of CHIN-AM) and got approval for that.  Each of the proceedings was fully public, and transparent.  There were opposing interventions in particular to the last application to originate separate programming.  The CRTC rejected those interventions.  It was brutal for the intervenors, who had skin in the game.  I worked with people who objected.  We were disappointed by the outcome - but CHIN shoe-horned its "asks" within the CRTC's policies.  And yes, 2 fm's and 1 am has been allowed by the CRTC for many years.  Bottom line, except for a few of the GTA ethnic stations who objected to the use of 91.9 as a station that originates programming, nobody bloody cared and no one wrote in to the CRTC to voice their objections or concerns. 

One more point if I may.  There was lots of discussion about the displacement of CHIN-1-FM 101.3....the hearing took place in Sept 2002 and went on for an eternity.  I think there were 17 different applicants.

Every ethnic group seemed to be represented there...and the displacement of CHIN's rebroadcast transmitter was very much discussed in that proceeding.  I forget which hotel the hearing was held at, but I seem to recall being there.  I think the hotel was downtown.

There were two applicants for 91.9.  Humber college and CHIN (to replace 101.3). It's all there in paragraphs 20-22 of the 2003 licensing decision.

 

Last edited by tvguy (August 25, 2025 5:33 pm)

tvguy wrote:

Not to be "pissy" but this CHIN rebroadcast transmitter goes back to the "last century".  It was on 101.3 back in the last century.  Then when the CRTC licensed Canadian Multicultural Radio aka CMA, CHIN lost the rebroadcast frequency for CHIN AM and then applied for 91.9 at low power.  They got that frequency.  Then over a period of years they applied for more power.  It was a public process EVERY STEP OF THE WAY!!!!.   They got 35 watts initially in 2003 on 91.9. There was probably another appllication that I haven't identified. They went from 161 watts to around 1850 watts in 2011.  A few years later they applied for the 5 kw max ERP.  Then a few years later they applied for the ability to run separate programming (in other words part-time rebroadcaster of CHIN-AM) and got approval for that.  Each of the proceedings was fully public, and transparent.  There were opposing interventions in particular to the last application to originate separate programming.  The CRTC rejected those interventions.  It was brutal for the intervenors, who had skin in the game.  I worked with people who objected.  We were disappointed by the outcome - but CHIN shoe-horned its "asks" within the CRTC's policies.  And yes, 2 fm's and 1 am has been allowed by the CRTC for many years.  Bottom line, except for a few of the GTA ethnic stations who objected to the use of 91.9 as a station that originates programming, nobody bloody cared and no one wrote in to the CRTC to voice their objections or concerns. 
 

I agree they did it by the book, but it still feels sleazy to me. If you apply for a retransmitter because your AM signal degrades at night, then that's what it should be. I don't expect AM740's 96.7 frequency to suddenly start churning out other programming because the excuse for its existence is to make the AM station receivable in the downtown core. 

CHIN didn't technically do anything wrong, but it wasn't exactly fair for them to get an increasingly stronger brand new station when they got their licence as something entirely different. 

And by the way, is the only broadcaster in the country that has three stations in one market with the exact same call letters? There's CHIN-AM, CHIN-FM (100.7) and CHIN-1-FM (91.9). And I thought having a double Chin was bad!