The Southern Ontario/WNY Radio-TV Forum » The Null Points Of HD Radio

RadioActive · November 17, 2024 12:14 pm

I know HD radio signals are fragile, but lately it seems there are a growing number of places where they simply fade into silence - even though you can still get the FM station they're piggybacked on clearly.

I experienced this recently with AM640's HD signal on CING-FM, which comes in fairly strong in Toronto. There's a small area near the Promenade Mall in Thornhill where what is normally good reception simply fades into silence. It's not a long stretch but it always makes me wonder why it happens there - and only there.

The HD signals for The Grand 92.9 (94.7-HD3) and CKDO (95.9-HD-3) are terrible for this, depending on what part of the city you're in. You can be listening to a song one second and it completely disappears for a while the next. Something about the geography of the area and the fact it's a more distant signal seems to be to blame.

It reminds me of the days when you'd go beneath an underpass or a tunnel and lose your AM station until you emerged. And It's the weakness of HD Radio and perhaps just one more reason it's failed to take off as radio execs. once hoped. ("Listen online" promos have almost completely replaced it in on-air mentions, instead.)

I like the HD quality of an AM station. But sometimes getting there - and getting it - isn't half the fun.

Marc1178 · November 17, 2024 12:38 pm

HD Radio is too low powered compared to regular FM to have good coverage. WOMC Detroit easily exceeds 120 km on regular FM when you head towards London on the 402. The HD signal starts breaking up right in Sarnia which is about 80 km from Ferndale, Michigan.

RadioAaron · November 17, 2024 1:06 pm

Yes, it works great for actual local stations, which none of those are. (95.9 may have been coming from their downtown pea-shooter, but what's the HD power of that? 10 watts?)

haydenmatthews14 · November 17, 2024 1:33 pm

What about Z103.5's HD signal? Is it terrible while in the Downtown Core of Toronto?

RadioAaron · November 17, 2024 1:56 pm

haydenmatthews14 wrote:
What about Z103.5's HD signal? Is it terrible while in the Downtown Core of Toronto?

My personal experience with it is that it's great. I can only reliably listen to Z at home on an HD radio.

RadioActive · November 17, 2024 2:32 pm

RadioAaron wrote:
Yes, it works great for actual local stations, which none of those are. (95.9 may have been coming from their downtown pea-shooter, but what's the HD power of that? 10 watts?)

The odd thing is that AM640's HD signal is usually very stable and comes in well almost everywhere I go in the upper part of North York and Thornhill. There's only that half a block driving up Bathurst towards Centre St. near the Mall where it disappears. Otherwise, it's almost always fine.

Evuguy · November 18, 2024 10:04 pm

I could see 94.7 being very spotty around Toronto due to adjacent’ s 94.9 Oshawa and 94.5 Buffalo. RA, I suspect your radio is leaning more towards 94.5 to decode the CHKX HD signal as WNED is much weaker. Still some interference though as WNED also uses HD, so they compete for the same slice of spectrum. For 95.9, a bit harder to say where the issue is, other than the HD synchronous repeater on the FCP that might end up impairing the HD signal overall. For example, where I live, the 95.9 analog signal suffers a lot of multipath distortion as the FCP and Lake Ridge signals are about equal in strength. Oddly, Durham Radio is the only broadcaster I know of that likes to create situations of potential interference with its own signals.

As for CING 95.3, other than for some local interference in that particular area you were in, I'm not sure. There’s nothing within 80 miles on either adjacent.

RadioActive · November 18, 2024 10:10 pm

I think you're right, and I know both The Grand and CKDO's piggyback signals are fragile, but since I can't get them any other way in any real quality, (the AM on 1580 is noisy and distant and their FM repeater is non-existent) it's HD or nothing. And too often, it's nothing.

The 640 on HD is a strange one, because that's really the only place where I've driven since getting this HD-equipped car where CFIQ's signal simply disappears. It's a very short stretch and then it pops right back in.

Evuguy · November 19, 2024 10:18 pm

Ok. I find CKDO's 1580 AM signal decent within Toronto, unless you are driving near a noisy power line. The 107.7 FM repeater (also from the Lake Ridge tower with 95.9) is highly directional and only starts to become listenable in east Scarborough. Pretty solid through south Durham though. Guessing they have to protect the adjacent 107.9's operating in Burlington and Cobourg, as well as 107.5 in Barrie.

radiokid · November 19, 2024 11:05 pm

CING is on CHCH's tower... They moved to the new one, but ever sense I find their signal is no where near as good as it use to be in parts of Toronto. This means HD has become spotty in some areas. Really was a downgrade for 95.3 from my experience.

With HD now available on the CN tower, it would be nice to see Corus join the rest and put HD on their signals, and move 640 there.

haydenmatthews14 · Yesterday 12:06 am

I know for a fact that CIHR 104.7 from Woodstock. Their transmitter tower is located on a side road just outside of Woodstock. I am not sure if they use the same tower as 103.9 or they use their own. Sometimes their HD signal is spotty at times but if you are in Woodstock it's not bad.

RadioAaron · Yesterday 8:42 am

radiokid wrote:
CING is on CHCH's tower... They moved to the new one, but ever sense I find their signal is no where near as good as it use to be in parts of Toronto. This means HD has become spotty in some areas. Really was a downgrade for 95.3 from my experience.

With HD now available on the CN tower, it would be nice to see Corus join the rest and put HD on their signals, and move 640 there.

It would be nice, but they won't do it.

Leslieville Bill · Yesterday 9:52 am

It's like digital TV; either the signal is there or it's not. I prefer that to holding the antenna for my Dad so he could watch the Leaf's game.

mace · Yesterday 10:11 am

Leslieville Bill wrote:
It's like digital TV; either the signal is there or it's not. I prefer that to holding the antenna for my Dad so he could watch the Leaf's game.

If you had an outdoor antenna, holding it so your dad could watch the Leaf game would not be required.

Leslieville Bill · Yesterday 10:14 am

I have no idea then why he made me climb up there.

Last edited by Leslieville Bill (Yesterday 10:14 am)

darcyh · Yesterday 12:39 pm

The HD signal component is only about a tenth of the analog signal's power. As such it does not have nearly the range of the 'parent' or analog signal. There are technical reasons the HD signal ratio cannot be increased, probably due to the bandwidth and or deviation of the signal. The HD channels are generally fine in an urban area but drop out as you get further from the transmitter.

haydenmatthews14 · Yesterday 2:52 pm

radiokid wrote:
CING is on CHCH's tower... They moved to the new one, but ever sense I find their signal is no where near as good as it use to be in parts of Toronto. This means HD has become spotty in some areas. Really was a downgrade for 95.3 from my experience.

With HD now available on the CN tower, it would be nice to see Corus join the rest and put HD on their signals, and move 640 there.

I am surprised that their signal is at 100,000 watts. It should cover Toronto, Niagara Falls and some parts of WNY very well. I doubt that Corus might put HD on 102.1 and 107.1. Also do you think that any of the London radio stations might go in HD at some point? There is no HD stations in London at the moment.

LOSat · Yesterday 3:12 pm

None in London proper but Heart FM out Woodstock has an HD signal. Not sure if Woodstock is considered part of the London market for ratings purposes.