One would think an open letter to the SOWNY Board would be better served on the SOWNY Board.



PJ

RadioActive wrote:

Oh, and not liking the CBC doesn't make me a card-carrying Conservative. For the record, I'm not a member of any party. I don't like government interference in broadcasting, period, no matter who dreams up the policies. Leave radio and TV to the professionals who do it for a living. How is that right wing?.

And there's the problem RA. You don't view the CBC as an independent broadcaster that happens to be publicly-funded, like the BBC, Australia's ABC, France Televisions or a host of other similar outlets in industrialized countries around the world. Instead, you view it as "government interference" (whatever the heck that means) into territory that should be left to our benevolent corporate overloads,

So let me ask you some questions. How has it been going among the "professionals who do it for a living" in Canada's private broadcasting world? I'm not talking about the guys who run small independent outlets in towns, but the major players who have the scope and financial resources to pull together national networks that run from coast-to-coast. Are they investing in new and exciting programming that entertains and informs Canadians? As our population now passes 40 million, are they hiring hundreds of new people to better serve their audiences? Are they investing heavily in digital technologies to reach new audiences? Or are they shutting down outlets, cutting services and firing people while at the same time pleading for more regulatory relief while also taking cash from the government in the form of tax subsidies, and programs like the Canada Media Fund and the Online News Act?

The CBC is far from perfect and people can debate its real or imagined biases from now until the cows come home. But to claim that the private sector would do a better job simply doesn't hold up in the face of the current reality in Canada.

RA, please.  Your long, biased and inaccurate post is as usual, exaggerated and over the top.

So you didn't like Hymn Sing and Don Messer and you just can't shake it out of your head??  Why you always revert to the old days is beyond me. The 60's, 70's and 80's are gone, and not coming back.  Live in the day, or at least somewhere in the last few decades.

You make it sound like CBC is swimming in money and should be cranking out BBC quality programming.  Hey guess what, BBC programming usually isn't that popular either in Canada.  Coronation Street excepted.  

We have been through this many times comparing what BBC, German Public Broadcasting, French Public and others receive from their various governments.  BBC for example receives over 4 times as much money as CBC, German public broadcasting even more.  For BBC, as you know it is a direct tax for households AND businesses. And no, CBC should not use PBS as a model for funding or programming.

CBC TV does NOT receive $1.3 billion from the government.  CBC/Radio Canada does.  This is for all English, French and Indegenious radio/TV programming, run the facilities and pay for staff.  CBC TV's portion of the $1.3 billion is about $750 million. So the quality of their programming is actually very good overall considering their real budget.  CBC/Radio Canada also takes in about $250 million a year in advertising.   

Care to guess what Bell Media's budget is for TV and radio?  Want to guess what they spend on US programming or even NFL football?  And the expensive US prime time shows are sliding badly in the ratings here and even more south of the border.

So US prime time programming has lousy ratings, does this mean their programming is terrible like CBC?   You can't run a network on Super Bowl ratings and a couple of shows that are still attracting decent audiences.

So to only focus on CBC TV and how terrible you think they are is just showing your one sided views, which is always..  Canada BAD...USA GOOD.  

I could even take issue with your unbalanced views on Bell Media.  But that is for another time.  

We will never agree on this and haven't for ages. Yes, I've admitted my bias against the CBC, even if you don't like where it comes from. But you know the old expression, "First impressions last." This one has been with me all my life and frankly, they've given me little reason to change it. 

Based on what I've seen, while the production elements are somewhat better, the actual on-air product is still terrible. I rarely watch the CBC's TV output and ratings indicate I'm not alone. 

All I can say is please feel free to enjoy the programming on CBC if you can. I - and apparently millions of other Canadians - won't be watching with you. The numbers don't lie. The eyeballs simply aren't there, regardless of how much money these guys are given. 

And just to reiterate what started all this in the first place, not liking the CBC does not make anyone a rabid right winger. I don't like the bulk of their programming. That's not political. It's a matter of taste. If yours is different from mine, please enjoy it. Just don't make me pay for something I'll never use. 

BowmanvilleBob wrote:

Just to add on...

The U.S. programs you cited come from a country that has ten times the population base of Canada and access to some of the most sophisticated technology in the broadcast world. Yet with a much smaller market and with far smaller budgets, the CBC still produced shows like "King of Kensington", "Marketplace", "This Hour has Seven Days" "Just for Laughs", "Anne with an E" and a host of the others. And the funny thing is, every time the CBC has tried to follow suit by doing big budget productions like "The Whiteoaks of Jalna" or "Dieppe", they faced rounds of criticism from private broadcasters, who say that kind of blockbuster programming should be their purview, yet they somehow never get around to doing anything about it.

Well, I guess that all centres on whether you think any of the shows you've listed there were great. Outside of Marketplace, which I think does an OK job for what it is, I never watched any of them after seeing part of the first episode. They were all terrible in my opinion. And that's all it is - my opinion. For some reason, when I criticize the CBC, I'm constantly told I hate it because it's Canadian. And that's not true. I dislike it because it's not good television.

And oh, by the way, as for paterson1's equation about Canadian=bad, American=good, that's pretty presumptuous, as well. I quite enjoyed Flashpoint and Transplant, just to take two examples. They were excellent shows and I watched every episode. So I don't care where they're from as long as they're entertaining. Why can't the CBC seem to make shows like that?

BowmanvilleBob wrote:

And of course, there's nothing like the tired old 80s trope about "dozens of producers" at the CBC, while the valiant souls of private broadcasting struggle on with just guts and a rusty editing blade. The fact is the CBC you created out of your beliefs hasn't existed for more than 20 years. A friend of mine who is a reporter/editor for CBC National Radio News tells me his days consist of cutting soundbites for two different radio networks, writing and updating stories for CBC's digital platforms, working with his TV colleagues to prep stories for syndication (often because he's sent out on stories with just a cameraman and is expected to weave his material into a larger TV story that will be voiced by another reporter) while also seeking interviews and other opinions to flesh out his own story for The World at Six. Ask him about the "dozens of producers" rumours and he'll simply laugh and keep on doing his job.fits and a better work/life balance, makes it easy to lash out at the Corp, rather than admit they were played for suckers.

I'm sure there are hard working people at the CBC and they're all pros. But you have to admit there are a lot more of them than at any private radio station in the country. Even if there are not as many as there used to be. And by the way, when I was at CFTR, the taxpayers didn't issue my paycheque. I think that matters.

BowmanvilleBob wrote:

If you look behind much of the bellyaching about the CBC from past and present private broadcast types, you'll usually find its motivated by two emotions - regret and envy. RA's talk about working hard and pulling rabbits out of hats for the pittance that he was paid by Rogers is part of the regret many of these folks feel for having given the best of their working years to a corporation that didn't give a crap about their sacrifices and threw them over the side when their usefulness had ended. This, combined with the envy they feel when they acknowledge that CBC staff are generally paid a living wage, have benefits and a better work/life balance, makes it easy to lash out at the Corp, rather than admit they were played for suckers.

Pretty presumptuous statement since I don't feel that way at all. I left CFTR of my own accord, with no one "playing me for suckers." I found a better opportunity and went for it to advance my career. As much as I don't like the bloated monstrosity that Rogers has become, it was a very different company back then.

I've done a lot of different jobs in TV and radio since then, but it was the best gig I ever had and I remain proud of the work I did there, much of which still stands up today when I occasionally pull it out of the archives and listen to it. I still remember how, not long after we started the show, the CBC began copying some of the production techniques we pioneered. We were surprised because we were doing what they termed "rock and roll news." But boy, did it sound good.

"And by the way, when I was at CFTR, the taxpayers didn't issue my paycheque. I think that matters."

Why? Does it make you feel more virtuous than a civil servant? A firefighter? A cop? A sailor serving on a Canadian Coast Guard ship? Are they and the thousands of other government workers at the federal, provincial and municipal levels somehow beneath your consideration because they're paid by the taxpayer? Your corporate masters at Rogers have taken and continue to take advantage of government tax breaks, subsidies and other forms of largesse from the public teat. Even though your cheque didn't have the Government of Canada logo on it, I daresay some of that sweet public money went into paying your salary.

BTW, where are shows like "Transplant" and "Flashpoint" now? Gone. Seeing anything else from your friendly neighbourhood conglomerate on the air these days that meets those same standards? In the meantime, CBC shows like "Running the Burbs", "Son of a Critch" and others are being enjoyed by people throughout the U.S. on various specialty networks, and CBC originated shows like "Shark Tank" and "Working Moms" (as well as Radio-Canada programs like "A Man and A Woman) are being adapted and produced in the U.S. and other countries around the world.

Stop living in the past.


 

Last edited by BowmanvilleBob (April 21, 2024 2:00 pm)

BowmanvilleBob wrote:

"And by the way, when I was at CFTR, the taxpayers didn't issue my paycheque. I think that matters."

Why? Does it make you feel more virtuous than a civil servant? A firefighter? A cop? A sailor serving on a Canadian Coast Guard ship? Are they and the thousands of other government workers at the federal, provincial and municipal levels somehow beneath your consideration because they're paid by the taxpayer? Your corporate masters at Rogers have taken and continue to take advantage of government tax breaks, subsidies and other forms of largesse from the public teat. Even though your cheque didn't have the Government of Canada logo on it, I daresay some of that sweet public money went into paying your salary. 

I doubt that. We were paid by the company for making radio that attracted advertisers. They may get tax breaks more now than they did then, but I highly doubt Rogers can in any way be characterized at the time I was there as getting millions in taxpayer dollars to produce their product. I can't speak about now. But back then, for sure, no. 

I don't feel more virtuous, but I do know that you and others like you weren't paying my entire pittance. (And God knows they're not "my corporate masters." This was the 80s. so it's been more than 40 years since I was there). As noted, both Rogers and radio were very different back then. As for all the other professions you listed, wow, talk about a stretch. A firefighter, for example, is literally on guard for thee. They save lives. Same with sailors. They're worth the money. They serve the public in heroic ways.

I don't think there can be any argument made that "The King of Kensington" ever saved anyone. And by the way, though it was made in the 80s as well and I'm sure things have changed, that NFB film I recommended a few weeks ago took viewers right into the heart of the then-CBC building on Jarvis St. It showed at least 10 or more producers working on As It Happens. There were probably even more. Private radio could never get away with that, but then private radio doesn't have a guaranteed income like the CBC has for decades. 

BowmanvilleBob wrote:

BTW, where are shows like "Transplant" and "Flashpoint" now? Gone. Seeing anything else from your friendly neighbourhood conglomerate on the air these days that meets those same standards? In the meantime, CBC shows like "Running the Burbs", "Son of a Critch" and others are being enjoyed by people throughout the U.S. on various specialty networks, and CBC originated shows like "Shark Tank" and "Working Moms" (as well as Radio-Canada programs like "A Man and A Woman) are being adapted and produced in the U.S. and other countries around the world.

Well, Transplant was on as recently as this season, so I'm not sure that's a good program to choose as an example. Global had "Departure" this year as well, which was also very good. So I'm not against Canadian made shows. There's a ton of talent here and they should be proud of it. That said, how come I never see any of those kinds of programs on CBC? 

And by the way, far be it for me to cheer on CTV and Global. They'll do anything to keep from having to spend the money on these shows if they can get away with it. But they have a certain amount of CanCon they need to make, so it might as well be good and saleable in other markets.

I admit, I sort of like "Critch" but mainly because of its radio connections. It's the only CBC I watched regularly this year. But the others you mention are of no interest to me at all and I never watch them. Last year, I tried to enjoy "Plan B" on the Corp., based on a Radio/Canada show. It was not very good and I haven't seen any indication it's coming back this year. How do you do a show about time travel and show hardly any time travel? Interesting concept, very poor execution.   

BowmanvilleBob wrote:

Stop living in the past. 

Actually, I'm living in the now. The CBC TV I see these days is just not very good. You can decry my opinion - and that's all it is - as much as you want, but figures show viewers across the country are just not tuning in. It's a fact and wishing it wasn't won't make it so.

In the end, I'm glad you seem to enjoy what CBC has to offer. Just don't compare it to a police officer or a paramedic. Hardly the same thing and I believe you're wise enough to know that.

So watch it all you want.

Just don't make me pay for something frivolous that I never use.

You seem impervious to facts RA. Your blind faith in the beliefs you've held over the past 40 years with no attempt to update your thought processes might be seen as admirable by some, while others might view it as the sign of a closed mind. 

Keep listening to those tapes. I hope they keep you warm at night. 

Really RA? You continue to ignore the fact that CBC Radio draws substantial audiences in major communities across the country. While CTV and Global can get by with offering recycled American cop, medical and legal shows, the days of OTA TV are clearly numbered as more and more people cut the cord and go to streaming services. While CBC continues to seek new audiences in the digital and streaming spaces, Bell, Rogers and Corus continue to milk their dying cash cows and will likely completely abandon broadcasting within the next 10 years. 

As others have pointed out here, you keep claiming you don't want this board to get political, but you keep finding ways to drop your negative thoughts on the CBC as often as possible. Perhaps "so many people" being upset with this is an indication that many of us actually like the CBC and, for all its faults, want it to continue. Perhaps I wasn't so far off the mark with my regret and envy assessment from earlier in this thread.

I'll leave the last word to you.

Most anti CBCers make the mistake of lumping the entire corporation into a toxic soup of wasted taxpayer dollars. When actually  Radio-Canada is extremely popular in Quebec and Radio One is very competitive in most Canadian major markets. It is the English television division that has the problem with a lack of viewers because many Canadians perceive their schedule to be filled with mostly dull uninteresting programs. That may not be fair, but that is how the majority of English speaking Canadians view the CBC. Personally, I am not a huge fan of their programs. Other than HNIC, Corrie and Marketplace there is nothing in their schedule that interests me. Growing up I watched Friendly Giant, Razzle Dazzle and Forest Rangers and enjoyed them. However, if the CBC had run those shows on Saturday mornings, I would have chosen Mighty Mouse and Underdog.

RadioActive wrote:

... not liking the CBC doesn't make me a card-carrying Conservative. For the record, I'm not a member of any party. I don't like government interference in broadcasting, period, no matter who dreams up the policies. Leave radio and TV to the professionals who do it for a living. How is that right wing?
.... Just don't make me pay for something I'll never use. 

RA, those comments, from my perspective at least, are conservative to the core. It doesn't matter whether or not you actually belong to a party. Your comments come across, at least to me, as opposed to state-funded broadcasting. That ain't exactly an NDP or Liberal platform.

And, consider that we pay taxes for all sorts of things we don't use directly. I think that's a very good thing. We fund universities and colleges, which many don't go to. We fund health care services, not all of which we use. We fund construction of highways in regions we'll never travel to. We fund social programs some or even many of us will never use or need. But the fact is that some people need these services, or choose to avail themselves of these opportunities. And the fact is that we all benefit from having a society whose members are well educated, healthy, and can get from Point A to Point B with relative ease.

A national broadcaster can also play a vital role, and although the CBC has not been as good, IMO, as some other national broadcast services, it has done considerable good over the years. Certainly, I've longed for serious structural adjustments. I'd love to see reorganization so entities like the National Film Board and its production capacities cross-pollinate with the CBC, and perhaps with other federal arms-length arts or communications entities. Certainly there's room here at SOWNY to talk about that kind of thing. But to argue here that you shouldn't have to pay for the CBC because you don't use it or like it, you are getting political even if you don't really consciously mean to or think you are.

I totally agree about not wanting to discuss the merits of blue versus red versus orange versus green, on SOWNY, and I think that's both noble and entirely doable. A few posters seem to thrive on expressing their political truth come hell or high water; for whatever reason that seems to make their day. I also have highly charged political views. But this isn't the place for that kind of debate. I'd rather see it gone. But I do think there's ample room to talk about how journalists and commentators cover political issues. That's a massive distinction some on this board aren't making. Tomas' question was in its purest sense a good one, but it fell apart and he blew his cool. The speed and degree in which he blew his cool was disappointing.

Overall, RA, I think you work hard to keep SOWNY lively and active, and at times from diving off the cliff. And for the most part you do it well. I like the way you introduce potential topics to discuss and debate. I also do think you are clearly not fond of the CBC, and quite possibly don't think the state has a role to play in broadcasting. At least, that's how your posts read, to me; please correct me if I'm wrong. If I'm correct, IMO at least, you are veering into political territory when you advance those kinds of arguments. Although I find your tone respectful, so my reaction has been, 'That's what RA thinks, might agree here, disagree there..."

Anyhow, I think the bottom line is to distinguish and respect the difference between talking about politics itself and talking about how the media cover politics, and to keep civil and friendly.
 

god this thread is tedious.

One last point...

When you call for the closure of an entire television network that serves more than 30 million people, coming at a time when hundreds of other people have been laid off from Canada's private networks, why would you be surprised that people disagree with you RA?

So, are you still calling for the complete closure of CBC TV's English TV network?

Well, I commend you RA. That's certainly a start.