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November 16, 2023 12:27 pm  #1


CHAM, CKOC, CKWW Sold

....to CINA radio, current licensee of CINA 1650 Mississauga, FLOW 98.7.Toronto, and CINA-FM Windsor.

All three go for a total of $455,000.

https://crtc.gc.ca/eng/archive/2023/2023-369.htm

Last edited by RadioAaron (November 16, 2023 12:36 pm)

 

November 16, 2023 12:57 pm  #2


Re: CHAM, CKOC, CKWW Sold

So what happens to these stations once Mr. Ray gets his hands on them? There are some clues in the documents filed with the CRTC, but maybe I'm misinterpreting what they say. For example:

"Each station’s programming is proposed to continue as it has been."

That would appear to indicate no immediate format changes. But I don't believe for a second the Oldies format (Windsor), the Comedy Format (CHAM) and especially the Business Format (CKOC) will continue. Another hint:

"In Windsor, the Applicant currently owns CINA-FM, which is a multicultural station airing programming in twelve different languages, with a focus on Arabic-language programming. By contrast, the Windsor station to be acquired, CKWW-AM, is an English-language “oldies” station. The two stations are very different from one another.

As the Applicant plans to continue operating CKWW under its current conditions of licence, the levels of diversity and competition will not change."


Of course, "current conditions of licence" has nothing to do with format. 

Then there's this:

"The two Hamilton stations, CHAM-AM and CKOC-AM, already operate in the same market and their relationship to each other will not change. The Windsor station, CKWW-AM, focuses on classic musical hits, whereas the Applicant’s existing station in Windsor, CINA-FM, is an ethnic station that primarily serves the Arabic-language market. The focus of each acquired station is not expected to change."

That last sentence has me wondering.

Meanwhile, all three stations will have a new home. 

"CKWW will be programmed and operated from the Applicant’s existing station’s premises."

And

"The applicant will operate CKWW Windsor from his existing facility in Windsor, located at 1368 Ouellette Avenue, from which his company, CINA Radio Group, already operates CINA-FM Windsor. The applicant plans to operate CHAM Hamilton and CKOC Hamilton from a facility in Hamilton that has not yet been leased."

So there's a lot of mystery surrounding what will happen to these legendary stations. Ethnic? Keep the format? Change into a networked operation of some kind? It should be interesting to keep an eye on this, but I know I will miss the comedy on CHAM when it eventually happens. It's a great alternative when there's simply nothing else on worth listening to. 

 

November 16, 2023 1:09 pm  #3


Re: CHAM, CKOC, CKWW Sold

RadioActive wrote:

So there's a lot of mystery surrounding what will happen to these legendary stations. Ethnic?

The only real condition of license on these signals is that they operate in English.
 

     Thread Starter
 

November 16, 2023 3:36 pm  #4


Re: CHAM, CKOC, CKWW Sold

The very worst thing he could do is turn them into leased time stations, with 24-hours of non-stop infomercials for "Purity" products and that ilk. 

 

November 16, 2023 4:16 pm  #5


Re: CHAM, CKOC, CKWW Sold

RadioAaron wrote:

....to CINA radio, current licensee of CINA 1650 Mississauga, FLOW 98.7.Toronto, and CINA-FM Windsor. All three go for a total of $455,000.

That's less than the price of a low-end condo in Toronto.
 

 

November 16, 2023 4:37 pm  #6


Re: CHAM, CKOC, CKWW Sold

Saul wrote:

RadioAaron wrote:

....to CINA radio, current licensee of CINA 1650 Mississauga, FLOW 98.7.Toronto, and CINA-FM Windsor. All three go for a total of $455,000.

That's less than the price of a low-end condo in Toronto.
 

SOWNY members should have formed a co-op. 😉

 

November 16, 2023 6:41 pm  #7


Re: CHAM, CKOC, CKWW Sold

My 2 cents worth.  All English language broadcasters can allocate a portion of their schedule to ethnic programs, between 6 a.m. and midnight.  It's in the Radio Regulations.   If there is an ethnic station licensed to serve the market, then up to 40% of the programming can be ethnic.  That's a lot of hours a week on each of CHAM and CKOC.  If there is an ethnic station in the market, then they would each be limited to 15% of their weekly 6 a.m. to midnight hours - around 18+ hours per station.  It will come down to whether under current CRTC "market" definitions there is an ethnic station that serves the market.   The nearest ethnic station would be, I believe CJMR Mississauga/Oakville, but CHIN-FM might have a 3 mV/m signal over the Hamilton market.


  • (4) Despite subsection (3), an A.M. licensee, F.M. licensee or digital radio licensee that is licensed to operate a community station or campus station may devote

    • (a) if it is broadcasting in a market where there is no ethnic station, up to 40% of a broadcast week to third language programs; or
    • (b) if it is broadcasting in a market where there is at least one ethnic station, except as otherwise provided by a condition of its licence, up to 15% of a broadcast week to third language programs.




 

 

November 16, 2023 6:45 pm  #8


Re: CHAM, CKOC, CKWW Sold

tvguy wrote:

My 2 cents worth.  All English language broadcasters can allocate a portion of their schedule to ethnic programs, between 6 a.m. and midnight.  It's in the Radio Regulations.   If there is an ethnic station licensed to serve the market, then up to 40% of the programming can be ethnic.  That's a lot of hours a week on each of CHAM and CKOC.  If there is an ethnic station in the market, then they would each be limited to 15% of their weekly 6 a.m. to midnight hours - around 18+ hours per station.  It will come down to whether under current CRTC "market" definitions there is an ethnic station that serves the market.   The nearest ethnic station would be, I believe CJMR Mississauga/Oakville, but CHIN-FM might have a 3 mV/m signal over the Hamilton market.


  • (4) Despite subsection (3), an A.M. licensee, F.M. licensee or digital radio licensee that is licensed to operate a community station or campus station may devote

    • (a) if it is broadcasting in a market where there is no ethnic station, up to 40% of a broadcast week to third language programs; or
    • (b) if it is broadcasting in a market where there is at least one ethnic station, except as otherwise provided by a condition of its licence, up to 15% of a broadcast week to third language programs.




 

Oh, interesting. I only knew about (b), not (a).

The CRTC would most definitely consider Hamilton a separate market, otherwise a whole multitude of rules would already be broken. ie: CORUS has 4 FMs and 2 AMs, and Bell has 3 FMs and 4 AMs "in the market"

Last edited by RadioAaron (November 16, 2023 7:08 pm)

     Thread Starter
 

November 17, 2023 11:55 am  #9


Re: CHAM, CKOC, CKWW Sold

I wonder if the $455,000 purchase price includes the properties where the transmitters are located?

I believe the CKWW site is near the River Cunard area and ground conductivity is very good, hence the wide coverage from its 500 watts. That area is kind of wet so I'm not sure what its land value would be.

On the other hand, given the property prices in the Hamilton area maybe shutting down and selling the real estate? Do they have any obligation to keep the stations on the air?

 

November 17, 2023 7:07 pm  #10


Re: CHAM, CKOC, CKWW Sold

Interesting the reaction on the Michigan Radio and TV Buzzboard site.  All of of the posters think that CKWW is going to an ethnic non English format, even though the new owner said no changes in the format, and as Aaron pointed out the station is licensed to broadcast in English. 

Besides he already owns CINA FM in Windsor which apparently focuses almost exclusively on the large Arabic population in Dearborn Michigan and some Detroit suburbs.  The station has a sales office in Warren and one poster mentioned whenever he listened to CINA he never once heard a commercial for a business in Windsor.  All ads were for Metro Detroit, especially Dearborn, Sterling Heights, Warren, Southfield etc.   

 

November 17, 2023 7:57 pm  #11


Re: CHAM, CKOC, CKWW Sold

paterson1 wrote:

Interesting the reaction on the Michigan Radio and TV Buzzboard site.  All of of the posters think that CKWW is going to an ethnic non English format, even though the new owner said no changes in the format, and as Aaron pointed out the station is licensed to broadcast in English. 
 

I'm starting to think it might be ethnic, at least in prime-time.

Them saying the formats will remain the same isn't binding, and is almost always said.

I didn't know about the 40% rule that would apply to Hamilton, so at least one of those stations will be ethnic in key hours.

As for Windsor, there's already an ethnic station in the market, so they'd be restricted to 15%, but it's co-owned. And given that the CRTC is usually complaint-oriented for such things....

Last edited by RadioAaron (November 17, 2023 7:57 pm)

     Thread Starter
 

November 17, 2023 9:41 pm  #12


Re: CHAM, CKOC, CKWW Sold

RadioAaron wrote:

paterson1 wrote:

Interesting the reaction on the Michigan Radio and TV Buzzboard site.  All of of the posters think that CKWW is going to an ethnic non English format, even though the new owner said no changes in the format, and as Aaron pointed out the station is licensed to broadcast in English. 
 

I'm starting to think it might be ethnic, at least in prime-time.

Them saying the formats will remain the same isn't binding, and is almost always said.

I didn't know about the 40% rule that would apply to Hamilton, so at least one of those stations will be ethnic in key hours.

As for Windsor, there's already an ethnic station in the market, so they'd be restricted to 15%, but it's co-owned. And given that the CRTC is usually complaint-oriented for such things....

As long as they took notes from the former CHSC, they just might know how to play their cards right.


RadioWiz & RadioQuiz are NOT the same person. 
RadioWiz & THE Wiz are NOT the same person.

 
 

November 17, 2023 10:36 pm  #13


Re: CHAM, CKOC, CKWW Sold

If the new owner continued with the current formats, wouldn't they have to pay Bell Media for the Funny service as well as the BNN service, not to mention use of the stations' monikers? Considering the fact that neither of those are winning formats, that wouldn't seem very cost effective.


PJ

Last edited by Paul Jeffries (November 17, 2023 10:44 pm)


ClassicHitsOnline.com...Classic hits done right!
 

November 18, 2023 12:18 am  #14


Re: CHAM, CKOC, CKWW Sold

Paul Jeffries wrote:

If the new owner continued with the current formats, wouldn't they have to pay Bell Media for the Funny service as well as the BNN service, not to mention use of the stations' monikers? Considering the fact that neither of those are winning formats, that wouldn't seem very cost effective.


PJ

Not sure about Business news, but Funny is not Bell controlled.


RadioWiz & RadioQuiz are NOT the same person. 
RadioWiz & THE Wiz are NOT the same person.

 
 

November 19, 2023 8:24 am  #15


Re: CHAM, CKOC, CKWW Sold

I think we're all convinced the current formats won't survive, especially in Hamilton. I'd love to see them leave CKWW alone, but as for CHAM and CKOC, anything is possible. So the question: if they're restricted to the number of hours they can broadcast in other languages, what is your best guess on the new formats? What would you do with these properties? 

 

November 19, 2023 11:24 am  #16


Re: CHAM, CKOC, CKWW Sold

RadioActive wrote:

I think we're all convinced the current formats won't survive, especially in Hamilton. I'd love to see them leave CKWW alone, but as for CHAM and CKOC, anything is possible. So the question: if they're restricted to the number of hours they can broadcast in other languages, what is your best guess on the new formats? What would you do with these properties? 

I'll wager the Hamilton stations primary use is ethnic. With both stations each able to program 40% third language, alternating programming between the two can create an essentially full-time ethnic format/brand.

     Thread Starter
 

November 19, 2023 12:29 pm  #17


Re: CHAM, CKOC, CKWW Sold

The new owner may have struck a deal with Bell as part of the sale.  He may be allowed to continue with the programming for a year or so if he wants.  I agree the two Hamilton stations likely will be heavily third language eventually or there could be an application at some point to make them full fledged ethnic stations.

CKWW I am not as sure what will become if it, or if it will stay mostly oldies for the time being.  Sounds like CINA FM does alright, at least for advertising from Michigan, and I am sure the owner doesn't want to jeopardize any of that.

Possibly they will apply to allow CINA  more Arabic content and move the other languages that also broadcast on the station to CKWW?  Even if it is only 15%.  The only issue could be the CRTC, which may not see this as serving Windsor if CINA focused even more on the ethnic audiences around Michigan. 

Windsor is not really that diverse in terms of language.  Out of a population of about 287,000 (CMA), only 36,000 people speak neither English or French at home.  And this is all other languages according to the 2016 census.  So it is logical why CINA focuses on the more concentrated Arabic  population across the border. https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2016/dp-pd/prof/details/page.cfm?Lang=E&Geo1=POPC&Code1=1032&Geo2=PR&Code2=35&SearchText=Windsor&SearchType=Begins&SearchPR=01&B1=All&GeoLevel=PR&GeoCode=1032&TABID=1&type=0 

 

November 19, 2023 12:33 pm  #18


Re: CHAM, CKOC, CKWW Sold

RadioAaron wrote:

RadioActive wrote:

I think we're all convinced the current formats won't survive, especially in Hamilton. I'd love to see them leave CKWW alone, but as for CHAM and CKOC, anything is possible. So the question: if they're restricted to the number of hours they can broadcast in other languages, what is your best guess on the new formats? What would you do with these properties? 

I'll wager the Hamilton stations primary use is ethnic. With both stations each able to program 40% third language, alternating programming between the two can create an essentially full-time ethnic format/brand.

And what will fill the time around that 40%? Paid programming?

 

November 19, 2023 1:32 pm  #19


Re: CHAM, CKOC, CKWW Sold

RadioActive wrote:

RadioAaron wrote:

RadioActive wrote:

I think we're all convinced the current formats won't survive, especially in Hamilton. I'd love to see them leave CKWW alone, but as for CHAM and CKOC, anything is possible. So the question: if they're restricted to the number of hours they can broadcast in other languages, what is your best guess on the new formats? What would you do with these properties? 

I'll wager the Hamilton stations primary use is ethnic. With both stations each able to program 40% third language, alternating programming between the two can create an essentially full-time ethnic format/brand.

And what will fill the time around that 40%? Paid programming?

I would think so. Paid programming doesn't have to mean overt infomercials. The sports betting stations, in the US, for example. 

The may also fill the time with music, but it would be just that: filler.
 

     Thread Starter
 

November 19, 2023 1:33 pm  #20


Re: CHAM, CKOC, CKWW Sold

paterson1 wrote:

 The only issue could be the CRTC, which may not see this as serving Windsor if CINA focused even more on the ethnic audiences around Michigan. 

The CRTC won't get involved in that distinction.

     Thread Starter
 

November 19, 2023 10:30 pm  #21


Re: CHAM, CKOC, CKWW Sold

I realize CKOC & CHAM are licensed to Hamilton, but you have to wonder how many ethnic stations can the GTHA support? Consider all the ones that currently exist in and around Toronto:

There's the three granddaddies of the genre, the CHINs - 1540, 100.7, and 91.9

Then there's CHLO AM 530 (Brampton)
CJMR 1320 (Mississauga)
CIRF 1350 (also Brampton)
CHKT 1430 (Toronto)
CHHA 1610 (Toronto)
CINA 1650 (Mississauga)
CHTO 1690 (Toronto)

CIRV 88.9 (Toronto, with three HD stations, also with ethnic formats)
CJSA 101.3 (Toronto also with three HD stations with separate ethnic formats)
CJRK 102.7 Scarborough
CFMS 105.9 Markham (Although the main channel is AC, there are two ethnic subcarriers.)

 And don't forget WTOR AM 770, the daytimer from Youngstown, N.Y. that is programmed as a Toronto station. 
Plus Sauga 960 does a foreign language block every weekday between 10AM-1PM.

That's at least 16 full or parttime ethnic outlets in essentially the same market. With all of those guys doing foreign language shows, is there really room for yet two more semi-fulltime ethnic stations in this area?

 

November 19, 2023 11:01 pm  #22


Re: CHAM, CKOC, CKWW Sold

RadioActive wrote:

I realize CKOC & CHAM are licensed to Hamilton, but you have to wonder how many ethnic stations can the GTHA support? Consider all the ones that currently exist in and around Toronto:

There's the three granddaddies of the genre, the CHINs - 1540, 100.7, and 91.9

Then there's CHLO AM 530 (Brampton)
CJMR 1320 (Mississauga)
CIRF 1350 (also Brampton)
CHKT 1430 (Toronto)
CHHA 1610 (Toronto)
CINA 1650 (Mississauga)
CHTO 1690 (Toronto)

CIRV 88.9 (Toronto, with three HD stations, also with ethnic formats)
CJSA 101.3 (Toronto also with three HD stations with separate ethnic formats)
CJRK 102.7 Scarborough
CFMS 105.9 Markham (Although the main channel is AC, there are two ethnic subcarriers.)

 And don't forget WTOR AM 770, the daytimer from Youngstown, N.Y. that is programmed as a Toronto station. 
Plus Sauga 960 does a foreign language block every weekday between 10AM-1PM.

That's at least 16 full or parttime ethnic outlets in essentially the same market. With all of those guys doing foreign language shows, is there really room for yet two more semi-fulltime ethnic stations in this area?

Yes and the main channel of CFMS 105.9 also airs Tamil music overnight from 6pm to 5am. Well over half of these ethnic radio station are targeting the huge and diverse South Asian population of GTA, airing contents in mostly Punjabi, Hindi, Tamil, Urdu and other various languages. A considerable percentage of their program is dedicated to infomercials, with frequent advertising related to ethnic outlets such as restaurants, immigration consultants, real estate agents and more. 820 and 1150 IMO are likely to air South Asian contents in the future, due to the active participation of S.Asian media operators in Canada in general.


The remaining stations such as 1430, 1540, 1610 & 1690 mostly targets other ethnic communities such as Chinese, Italian, Portuguese, Spanish and Greek, with Chinese contents airing mainly in Cantonese and Mandarin. It is certain to say that there is still availability for new full-time ethnic stations in GTA. However, as the audience is migrating to internet and FM at an everlasting pace, a lot of these outlets might be forced to change their business model in the soon future.

 

November 20, 2023 10:57 am  #23


Re: CHAM, CKOC, CKWW Sold

In 2021 the GTHA had a population of 7.2 million and strong growth.  Toronto has always had a lot of ethnic broadcasters and dayparts on stations.  I remember in the 60's both CHCH and CFTO ran ethnic language blocks, as did CHUM for many years in the 50's.  CHIN has been around for 56 years, and been quite successful for decades. And of course we have Rogers three OMNI television stations that have expanded to other markets across Canada. 

This is not to say that ethnic media can't fail.  Last year Torstar closed Canada's largest Chinese daily newspaper with Sing Tao shutting down.  Sing Tao Daily was also published in Vancouver and Calgary. 

 

November 20, 2023 6:20 pm  #24


Re: CHAM, CKOC, CKWW Sold

It took a while, but Broadcast Dialogue has finally caught up to this story. Not much here you don't know, but it repeats the new soon-to-be-owner's insistence that there will be no changes at any of the stations - at least at first.

(Even if that were true, 1150's Bloomberg Business format is owned by Bell and there's almost no way he could duplicate it without considerable expense. Even if he wanted to do that for a station with a 0.1 rating. If I read Mr. Ray's previous M.O. right, he's interested in spending as little as possible. In that way, I suppose he mirrors Bell!)

Neeti P. Ray makes bid to buy Bell Media AM stations in Hamilton, Windsor

 

November 21, 2023 7:43 pm  #25


Re: CHAM, CKOC, CKWW Sold

RadioActive wrote:

What would you do with these properties? 

He could just turn around and sell the transmitter sites as real estate.  I understand that the CFRN site in Edmonton has already been taken down.
 

 

November 21, 2023 7:48 pm  #26


Re: CHAM, CKOC, CKWW Sold

andysradio wrote:

RadioActive wrote:

What would you do with these properties? 

He could just turn around and sell the transmitter sites as real estate. I understand that the CFRN site in Edmonton has already been taken down.
 

If that added up, Bell would have done it.

     Thread Starter
 

November 21, 2023 10:21 pm  #27


Re: CHAM, CKOC, CKWW Sold

Bell is retaining ownership of the sites and can force him to vacate for no reason with six months notice. Details are in the posted application.

 

November 22, 2023 12:08 pm  #28


Re: CHAM, CKOC, CKWW Sold

Skywave wrote:

Bell is retaining ownership of the sites and can force him to vacate for no reason with six months notice. Details are in the posted application.

If Bell is retaining ownership of the sites and can vacate him with 6 months notice what did he really purchase?
Essentially a 6 month self renewing rental?

 

November 22, 2023 12:33 pm  #29


Re: CHAM, CKOC, CKWW Sold

darcyh wrote:

Skywave wrote:

Bell is retaining ownership of the sites and can force him to vacate for no reason with six months notice. Details are in the posted application.

If Bell is retaining ownership of the sites and can vacate him with 6 months notice what did he really purchase?
Essentially a 6 month self renewing rental?

Unfortunately, if it's a rental deal for the tower land and not ownership, a demolition clause legally does mean that Bell can kick the towers off the property with 6 month's notice in favour of sale of the land to a developer. (if not already sold)
It sounds a bit complex, but I learned a bit about this from some businesses along Dupont street.
It's in the process of becoming the "NEW" Dupont.   (a new condo development)
Several businesses near Dupont subway station have signed a 3 year lease with a demolition clause.
With that lease signed, it means that in the middle of a lease the landlord (or developer) does NOT
have to pay them to relocate.  
I'm not a lawyer by any means, but for CINA's sake, I hope they have a good one! They might need one. 
(if lucky, maybe a family member that takes the case at low to no cost...)

Last edited by Radiowiz (November 22, 2023 12:36 pm)


RadioWiz & RadioQuiz are NOT the same person. 
RadioWiz & THE Wiz are NOT the same person.

 
 

November 22, 2023 12:45 pm  #30


Re: CHAM, CKOC, CKWW Sold

I wonder if the new owner ultimately wants the frequencies and has contingency plans to relocate to new premises with much simpler systems. They already have a site in Windsor, though I have no idea if they own it or if it's feasible to also accommodate an AM.