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August 6, 2024 10:03 am  #1


FCC OKs Cdn. AM Ownership in Seattle-Tacoma. But What About Kingston?

Maybe this just needs some clarification for me. The FCC has signed off on allowing a Canadian citizen to own an AM station in Seattle. Yes, it's unusual. But the stories I've read on this make it sound like it's a first. 

What about WLYK-FM 102.7 in Cape Vincent, New York that is now controlled by Jon Pole's My Broadcasting Corporation? Is it different when a "company" owns it as opposed to a person? 

There have always been rules about foreign ownership of media south of the border, but I believe they were allowed to invest in broadcasting properties as long as it didn't exceed 25% of controlling interest. That now appears to be changing. It's not like this situation is new, though - that Punjabi-language formatted station has been on the air for years.

WTOR 770 AM in Youngstown, N.Y. is aimed squarely at a Toronto audience, but is owned by Birach Broadcasting, an American firm. I'm sure the CRTC would never allow a Canadian border station to try to go after a U.S. audience. (We all know what happened to CKLW when they tried it.) But it would be interesting to see what the reaction would be if someone ever attempted it. 

FCC Greenlights Canadian AM Ownership in Seattle-Tacoma

 

August 6, 2024 10:09 am  #2


Re: FCC OKs Cdn. AM Ownership in Seattle-Tacoma. But What About Kingston?

Gawd! Memories of when the late great (or not so great) Wild 101 FM literally targeted Buffalo, trying their best to sound like a Buffalo FM radio station. That didn't last long. The CRTC laid down the law on that one.
They were later in trouble for 2Day FM being only one station on 105.1 and 101.1, but that's another story.

As for American stations, they always had a strict rule for YEARS that if You're not American, you couldn't own a station, but you were always free to rent it.  Renting was never a problem. This is very old information though, from several years ago.

 


RadioWiz & RadioQuiz are NOT the same person. 
RadioWiz & THE Wiz are NOT the same person.

 
 

August 6, 2024 10:49 am  #3


Re: FCC OKs Cdn. AM Ownership in Seattle-Tacoma. But What About Kingston?

RadioActive wrote:

Maybe this just needs some clarification for me. The FCC has signed off on allowing a Canadian citizen to own an AM station in Seattle. Yes, it's unusual. But the stories I've read on this make it sound like it's a first. 

What about WLYK-FM 102.7 in Cape Vincent, New York that is now controlled by Jon Pole's My Broadcasting Corporation? Is it different when a "company" owns it as opposed to a person? 

There have always been rules about foreign ownership of media south of the border, but I believe they were allowed to invest in broadcasting properties as long as it didn't exceed 25% of controlling interest. That now appears to be changing. It's not like this situation is new, though - that Punjabi-language formatted station has been on the air for years.

WTOR 770 AM in Youngstown, N.Y. is aimed squarely at a Toronto audience, but is owned by Birach Broadcasting, an American firm. I'm sure the CRTC would never allow a Canadian border station to try to go after a U.S. audience. (We all know what happened to CKLW when they tried it.) But it would be interesting to see what the reaction would be if someone ever attempted it. 

FCC Greenlights Canadian AM Ownership in Seattle-Tacoma

CHUM's Windsor stations other than AM800 were aimed sqarely at Detroit for much of their existence. They even had a sales office there, and 89x's morning team was American. AM580's slogan was even "Motor City Favorites"
 

 

August 6, 2024 11:06 am  #4


Re: FCC OKs Cdn. AM Ownership in Seattle-Tacoma. But What About Kingston?

I'm sure the CRTC did not approve and put the kibosh on it. Too bad. It's OK for the U.S. to aim its signals at us but we are rarely allowed to return the favour.

I used CKLW as an example because it was the most outrageous stifling of a hugely successful Canadian radio station hitting it big in the States in my memory. I thought the government wanted to spread Canadian culture, not restrict it to a certain border point.

Well, it appears they got what they wanted. CKLW is now almost solely for Windsor listeners. Nothing wrong with that, but they could do the same thing on a 5,000 watt radio station, not one that reaches a huge number of American states and could have been used to serve Canada while also promoting it. 

At one time, The Big 8 was the #1 station in Toledo! I can't think of anyone across the border who listens to it now. 

     Thread Starter
 

August 6, 2024 11:37 am  #5


Re: FCC OKs Cdn. AM Ownership in Seattle-Tacoma. But What About Kingston?

RadioActive wrote:

I'm sure the CRTC did not approve and put the kibosh on it. Too bad. It's OK for the U.S. to aim its signals at us but we are rarely allowed to return the favour.
 

They did not. The stations were following the rules, and there are none about slogans, targets, or sales offices. They only stopped because the Detroit sales office was no longer paying for itself.

 

August 6, 2024 11:40 am  #6


Re: FCC OKs Cdn. AM Ownership in Seattle-Tacoma. But What About Kingston?

They didn't do too much to aid them. The rigid CanCon rules didn't help!

     Thread Starter
 

August 6, 2024 11:46 am  #7


Re: FCC OKs Cdn. AM Ownership in Seattle-Tacoma. But What About Kingston?

Hope the cheque clears.

 

August 6, 2024 11:59 am  #8


Re: FCC OKs Cdn. AM Ownership in Seattle-Tacoma. But What About Kingston?

If the FCC can allow Radio Sputnik (the modern version of Radio Moscow) to lease a Washington DC radio station full time and also allow the Chinse Communist Party's propaganda department to lease another Washington radio station full time for a decade, I don't see why they'd have a problem with Canadians

Wikipedia: WZHF

Beijing’s covert radio network airs China-friendly news across Washington, and the world

Last edited by Hansa (August 6, 2024 12:00 pm)

 

August 6, 2024 3:18 pm  #9


Re: FCC OKs Cdn. AM Ownership in Seattle-Tacoma. But What About Kingston?

RadioActive wrote:

I'm sure the CRTC did not approve and put the kibosh on it. Too bad. It's OK for the U.S. to aim its signals at us but we are rarely allowed to return the favour.

I used CKLW as an example because it was the most outrageous stifling of a hugely successful Canadian radio station hitting it big in the States in my memory. I thought the government wanted to spread Canadian culture, not restrict it to a certain border point.

Well, it appears they got what they wanted. CKLW is now almost solely for Windsor listeners. Nothing wrong with that, but they could do the same thing on a 5,000 watt radio station, not one that reaches a huge number of American states and could have been used to serve Canada while also promoting it. 

At one time, The Big 8 was the #1 station in Toledo! I can't think of anyone across the border who listens to it now. 

Still trying to flog that old, tired and very dead horse RA??  Cancon had pretty much nothing to do with CKLW's decline.  LW had their best ratings and much influence in the early to mid 70's when cancon was in full swing.

CKLW's big decline in the very late 70's and early 80's happened the same time as other major AM top 40 stations like KHJ, WCFL, WLS, WKBW, WABC and others. All of these stations didn't play 30% cancon or any regulation from the CRTC.  It was FM with it's superior sound and style that killed music on AM radio.  Cancon had really nothing to do with it.  And also the fact that CKLW's Drake sound and style were dated and hadn't changed much in over 10 years.  

Where you could have an argument would be with CKLW FM trying to adopt CKLW AM's format in the 80's and the CRTC putting the kybosh on that.  However that was stopped before it really got started, so we have no way of knowing how successful or not it might have been.  In that respect the CRTC was wrong. 

I am of the take that flipping the format to CKLW FM would not have had the desired results.  FM radio in Detroit already had well established AOR and top 40 stations on FM by this time.  And as mentioned the Drake format was dated and would have been questionable on FM.  CKLW FM would have been better to adopt an AOR/ and secondary top 40 format similar to WRIF or WLLZ who both were leading in the ratings on FM, rather than trying to flip the AM format to FM. 

CKLW AM was never big on Canadian culture in this era.  Other than the mandated airplay, temperatures eventually in celsius for Windsor and for a few years two different time checks, they were a Detroit station.  Many people were aware that they were from Windsor and in Canada, and that they would play some different music.

Thanks to the genius of Rosalie Trombley and her influence many of these "cancon hits" were picked up and played on US stations, so they weren't so "foreign." 

I think a big attraction of LW was always their 20/20 newscasts which they pioneered. This radical type of news  was copied by a few, but never as exteme as CKLW.   But by the 80's this also had fallen out of style. 

Anyway all of this that happened 45-50 years ago and doesn't matter now and didn't much then.  

   

  

 

August 6, 2024 6:07 pm  #10


Re: FCC OKs Cdn. AM Ownership in Seattle-Tacoma. But What About Kingston?

RadioActive wrote:

They didn't do too much to aid them. The rigid CanCon rules didn't help!

Windsor stations have a lower Cancon quota since they face the competition of a dial-full of US stations.

 

August 6, 2024 7:35 pm  #11


Re: FCC OKs Cdn. AM Ownership in Seattle-Tacoma. But What About Kingston?

RadioAaron wrote:

RadioActive wrote:

They didn't do too much to aid them. The rigid CanCon rules didn't help!

Windsor stations have a lower Cancon quota since they face the competition of a dial-full of US stations.

So can that be taken as an admission that original CanCon chased away audience? If not, how to explain the rule?

I think the Canadian music industry is now robust enough that it can stand on its own without quotas and that stations will play the music not because it's Canadian but because it's good. Remove the percentages and let's see what happens. 

     Thread Starter
 

August 6, 2024 7:41 pm  #12


Re: FCC OKs Cdn. AM Ownership in Seattle-Tacoma. But What About Kingston?

RadioActive wrote:

RadioAaron wrote:

RadioActive wrote:

They didn't do too much to aid them. The rigid CanCon rules didn't help!

Windsor stations have a lower Cancon quota since they face the competition of a dial-full of US stations.

So can that be taken as an admission that original CanCon chased away audience? If not, how to explain the rule?
 

Of course it does, and the Windsor exception is literally the CRTC admitting that.

In a competitive environment, the music selection is absolutely critical, and any filter beyond "is this the best song to play for this audience right now" is a disadvantage. Anyone with any experience with research and ratings has seen this.

CKLW used every trick and loophole in the book to minimize cancon, including stacks of montages late at night. They're the actual reason the CRTC closed the loopholes, not coincidentally right when they were moving to FM - which itself was full of even more regulations that chased away listeners.
 

Last edited by RadioAaron (August 6, 2024 7:50 pm)

 

August 6, 2024 9:02 pm  #13


Re: FCC OKs Cdn. AM Ownership in Seattle-Tacoma. But What About Kingston?

Echoing what RadioAaron has said, the CRTC staff and Commissioners really had no knowledge or idea about the realities of the competitive market in Windsor. I was at the hearing in in Windsor when Keith Campbell and the O'Brien brothers acquired CKLW, and CKEZ-FM.  The venture "Russwood Broadcasting" was funded by CUC, a major cable company.  Read Decision CRTC 85-158 and you will see the bizarre conditions of licence that the stations operated under.  At the hearing, Keith Campbell who was never at a loss for words was asked by Commissioner Coupal - and I could not make this up:  "how much French language music will you commit to play, and how much French programming will you have - because you filled in "zero" on the application forms."

Keith looked at me, in confusion.  She was dead serious.  We said that the CKEZ-FM (Cklw) tower, if it fell over would end up on U.S. soil and possibly hit the GM Renessaince Center.   She kept at it, and asked how were we going to serve D'etroit  (she used a French pronunciation) - she seemed to believe that Detroit was a French speaking city.  She went on to name several places on the Canadian side of the river with French sounding names.  One of them was Belle Riviere (Belle River).   Totally, totally clueless.  And you wonder why the CKLW management of that time, (and probably in the 1990's)  exploited every trick in the book?  In the 1980s those were the days of FM foreground and FM mosaic programming, both horrible failures - and many hours of "special interest" music enforced by conditions of licence - that few people wanted to listen to - even in Belle Riviere...or "D'etroit   The vendor was as I recall Baton Broadcasting.    Within 3 years, Campbell and  the O'Briens were "out" and CUC took full  control of the stations.  

 Geoff Conway, the CEO of CUC died at age 54.  I believe that it took about 4 years before CUC could find a buyer...in 1992 CHUM bought the stations and they received CRTC approval in 1993. - 

Yes, the CRTC made some concessions regarding Cancon for border stations, but far too little and far too late.


 

Last edited by tvguy (August 6, 2024 9:16 pm)

 

August 6, 2024 9:29 pm  #14


Re: FCC OKs Cdn. AM Ownership in Seattle-Tacoma. But What About Kingston?

RadioActive wrote:

RadioAaron wrote:

RadioActive wrote:

They didn't do too much to aid them. The rigid CanCon rules didn't help!

Windsor stations have a lower Cancon quota since they face the competition of a dial-full of US stations.

So can that be taken as an admission that original CanCon chased away audience? If not, how to explain the rule?

I think the Canadian music industry is now robust enough that it can stand on its own without quotas and that stations will play the music not because it's Canadian but because it's good. Remove the percentages and let's see what happens. 

Aaron is correct that Windsor stations play 20% cancon, however back in 1971 when the ruling came into being and until.sometime in the late 80's or early 90's Windsor AM stations played the same 30% cancon as all other AM outlets in the country.  CKLW by this time was a long way from being the powerhouse they had been in the 60's and 70's.

This lower cancon amount only applied to Windsor and not other markets like Sarnia, St. Catharines or Niagara Falls.  The CRTC in the early 90's also bent the rules on ownership allowing CHUM to own all the commercial stations in Windsor.  Were they admitting that the rules were hurting Windsor radio?

Or was the CRTC finally  acknowleging that Windsor was a unique market, only half a mile away from a top ten US radio market of 4 million people with many, many more stations all booming into Windsor?  Local Windsor stations hadn't received any breaks from the CRTC in the past so they finally got a few bones.

Did these changes make any difference for Windsor radio?  Likely not.  Was it too little too late?  Hard to say since CKLW remained number one or near the top of Detroit ratings for 5-6 years after 1971.  

Don't agree with the assertion that the CRTC is somehow preventing or discouraging Canadian stations to go after a US audience.  The reality is that there aren't many markets just over the border on the US side that are big  enough to really go after.  Exceptions were in Detroit with CKLW AM and CIMX (89X)  that had great success. CINA-FM out of Windsor derives almost all of it's revenue from the Detroit area and the local Arabic population.  CFNY 102.1 had some success in Niagara Falls NY, Buffalo, and WNY as did CHWO out of Oakville in the 80's.  

US stations over the years have tried to make a similar impact with border blasters from smaller towns catering to the larger cities and towns on our side with limited results and nothing long term.  The exception would have been Rock 102 in Buffalo with their then huge coverage of Southern Ontario, and radio from Detroit that screams into SW Ontario.  However Detroit radio and TV don't seem to be concerned about any revenue from Windsor and area and haven't for many years.  

   

Last edited by paterson1 (August 6, 2024 9:51 pm)

 

August 7, 2024 11:14 am  #15


Re: FCC OKs Cdn. AM Ownership in Seattle-Tacoma. But What About Kingston?

Radiowiz wrote:

Gawd! Memories of when the late great (or not so great) Wild 101 FM literally targeted Buffalo, trying their best to sound like a Buffalo FM radio station. That didn't last long. The CRTC laid down the law on that one.
They were later in trouble for 2Day FM being only one station on 105.1 and 101.1, but that's another story.

As for American stations, they always had a strict rule for YEARS that if You're not American, you couldn't own a station, but you were always free to rent it.  Renting was never a problem. This is very old information though, from several years ago.

 

A couple of years after Byrnes Communications bought 101.1 and 105.1, they entered into a sales partnership with Radio One Buffalo(which owns WECK)to help sell advertising in Buffalo for both stations.

 

August 7, 2024 11:43 am  #16


Re: FCC OKs Cdn. AM Ownership in Seattle-Tacoma. But What About Kingston?

Windsor and Essex County were ill served when it came to airing local news and issues back when CKLW-AM was a de facto Detroit station. 
CJSP in Leamington, which came on the air in 1955,  filled the gap to some extent but it was a day-time only operation and continued to focus mostly on the county when it was transformed into CHYR (710 daytime) and CHIR (730 nighttime).
CBE (1550 AM) certainly offered comprehensive coverage of national and provincial affairs after opening in 1950 as one of the links in CBC’s Trans-Canada Network
It also provided a stepping stone for Al Hamel and Lloyd Robertson.
But CBE's coverage of Windsor news was sparse.
That all changed in 1964 with the arrival of CKWW (AM 580, Wonderful Windsor) which tried to relate everything to  Windsor (if a satellite was launched into space, listeners were told it was flying in the sky over Windsor). 
Windsor listeners, of course, had the luxury of devoting the highest percentage of hours tuned to  the variety and polish offered by a plethora of Detroit stations.