paterson1 wrote:

A marriage between CHCH and CKOC could work well.

No it wouldn't. Too costly for too little return. High risk, low reward. Hard to sell a standalone radio station to advertisers, much less a new AM station in a diary market that has no audience as it stands now. 

paterson1 wrote:

Make the station similar to community/regional radio but on AM. 

So you're saying they should operate a for-profit station like a not-for-profit station? And not only that, but do it on a worse band? Sounds like a recipe for failure. 

paterson1 wrote:

Laugh all you want, nobody else is doing this.

Gee.... I wonder why. 

paterson1 wrote:

The local cross promotion between TV and radio is something that other Hamilton stations don't have. 

Not sure what benefit you think this has? CHCH has given up on primetime, what exactly are they to promote? They're the only news option in town, they don't need to promote on radio, and if they wanted to they could buy radio spots for far less than the cost of acquiring and running an AM station that nobody listens to. 

paterson1 wrote:

Because it is 2023 is the exact reason why new ideas should happen.  The current model doesn't work and companies like Bell have been shown not to be the best at running radio stations.  And please, spare us the stock answer of "if it were feasible, it would have been done.."  If Bell knew what was feasible I doubt they would have bought CTV for $2.3 billion in 2003, sell most of it a few years later, and then turn around and buy the network back again.  Nothing like paying for something twice. 

-Says it's 2023 and new ideas are needed
-Brings up an idea straight from the 1950s
-Thinks the same company that dances with bankruptcy every few years should invest in a band that is declining rapidly
-Lambasts a decision made 20 years ago 


I hate to break it to you, but it would be the same people in charge of radio even if these large radio groups weren't owned by big telecoms. Decisions are made based on the bottom line no matter who owns the place, and as long as they own radio stations, they'll have radio industry veterans in charge of running them. 
 

paterson1 wrote:

RadioAaron wrote:

paterson1 wrote:

CHCH should have bought CKOC. Great for cross promotion possibilities between TV and radio.  CKOC covers a large area with 50,000 watts.  Move 1150 to the new CHCH building and utilize the television news department and on air personalities.

Make the radio very Hamilton/Niagara with a few talk shows, some brokered weekend programming.  Any music could be a mix, run Roger Ashby's oldies show.  Bring back well known Hamilton sports guy Ken Welch for a sports talk show.

Keep the station very Hamilton/Niagara with lots of personality and offer some ad packages with CHCH.  Would be interesting and a win win win for Hamilton/CHCH/and CKOC.

You know it’s 2023, right?

Hamilton/Niagara for the size of market is underserved with local radio. A marriage between CHCH and CKOC could work well.  Make the station similar to community/regional radio but on AM.  Laugh all you want, nobody else is doing this. The local cross promotion between TV and radio is something that other Hamilton stations don't have. 

Because it is 2023 is the exact reason why new ideas should happen.  The current model doesn't work and companies like Bell have been shown not to be the best at running radio stations.  And please, spare us the stock answer of "if it were feasible, it would have been done.."  If Bell knew what was feasible I doubt they would have bought CTV for $2.3 billion in 2003, sell most of it a few years later, and then turn around and buy the network back again.  Nothing like paying for something twice. 

CHML has a 0.9 share.

A dead format on a dead band in a bad market is not a "new" idea; just a terrible one.
 

RadioAaron wrote:

CHML has a 0.9 share.
A dead format on a dead band in a bad market is not a "new" idea; just a terrible one.
 

Is that including the Ti Cat games? I thought Ti cat games were helping.
 

Radiowiz wrote:

You're saying there IS return? But "too little".  What is "too little"?  Are you saying there's greater benefit in just going to the welfare office and living off of that instead? What is your point??? 

I see good money in a classic country format. People who say it is too hard to sell a stand alone station to advertisers have no idea what they are talking about, at least not without being more clear on what "too little" is.

I hope what you mean is, the return on the investment will work out to less than minimum wage once the input of hours of effort are reviewed.

In this hypothetical CHCH/CKOC scenario: they would certainly, without a question of a doubt, lose at least $500k/yr for several years. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt and say by the time an audience and advertisers arrive (if ever) the band is not 10 feet under, they would at best have an operating margin of 0%, and that's generous given the average last year for Canadian English AM's was around -10%, and Toronto AMs were -5%. Also keep in mind the relatively large up-front capital required to out-bid the religious/multi-lingual groups who no doubt will want to buy CKOC. 

You can live in a fantasy world where regular music and newstalk English AM radio has a future, but it does not, and the only reason it's kept afloat now is by co-existing with other (profitable) FM stations that can share staff and be sold to advertisers as one. 

Radiowiz wrote:

RadioAaron wrote:

Radiowiz wrote:

I see good money in a classic country format. People who say it is too hard to sell a stand alone station to advertisers have no idea what they are talking about, at least not without being more clear on what "too little" is.

No, they have experience.

As I said, unclear experience.

 

Infinitely more than you. You are not in a position to say they "have no idea what they're talking about"

A stand-alone Classic Country AM launching today would get less than a one share. You cannot sell that on its own against a top rated Country FM station, a Bell Bounce/Move/HTZ combo, or a TV station that offers all the benefits of television at radio rates.

RadioAaron wrote:

darcyh wrote:

They should leave CKWW 580 the way it is.


 

Unprofitable?

Perhaps. I don't know if CKWW makes any money for Bell Media. With no on air staff and full automation it should not be too costly to operate given it is in the same building as CKLW and probably shares the technical infrastructure. It has a smaller audience and probably an older demographic. But the listeners are quite likely loyal as the programming is unique. A small audience in a high population market is still considerable. Its night time signal is also decent for AM in the Detroit area. Without knowing what the station sold for it is difficult to speculate on its potential profitability. Possible advertisers in the Detroit market could be auto dealerships, medical services, retirement residences and home renovation services.
 

Last edited by darcyh (July 14, 2023 8:46 pm)

Thanks for your comments torontostan and Aaron. We know the CHCH/CKOC partnership is not going to happen and yes the scenario was more like fantasy pool.

However, what I was talking about was far removed from corporate radio and not even a newstalk or regular music format.  I was thinking of a community/regional format that yes would have some music programs but not a music oriented station. Hamilton/Niagara/Oakville is underserved by local radio and has been for a long time.

The station would have operated out of CHCH's building and utilize the TV station newsroom and some on air talent. Also build relationships with the Hamilton Spectator and Mississauga News and partner with some of their reporters and writers.

The station wouldn't take part in Numeris ratings since national advertising would not be a priority.  Regardless you would get a few national buys anyway.  College and community stations have national advertising and don't take part in ratings surveys.  The priority is local, even some commercial remote broadcasts. 

CKOC would be based on relationship selling with local advertisers, businesses and a relationship with listeners and the community.  Something that is usually lacking in corporate radio and has been for too long.

Also the advertising focus would be with regional, city and town governments, BIA's, regional business associations, and larger regional companies such as building supply and hardware centres, automotive dealerships, health care, investment planning, colleges, university's and industry.  All of these have advertising budgets but are rarely heard on radio.  

Disagree that Hamilton/Niagara is a dead market.  Hamilton is booming and growing.  If local radio isn't booming then that is on them not the city. 

In the GTHA we have a few AM stations that still seem to be doing well.  I am not familiar enough with the ethnic AM or religious stations so my assumption is that they are profitable or at least break even.  CKOC wouldn't be competing with them anyway.

City News 680 does very well audience wise and should be profitable, Newstalk 1010 should still be marginally profitable, and Zoomer 740 sounds like they are doing well since most of their shows are sponsored and they have carved out a unique advertising and programming niche that nobody else is doing. 

I know they benefit with the cable fees from the companies 4 channels, but surely most of this goes towards running the television operation.  Zoomer Radio sounds like a successful radio station with mature and professional on air talent and news. The number of voices heard on Zoomer 740 puts Newstalk 1010 to shame.

I think in my scenario there is room for one more successful AM radio station in the GTHA with a population of over 10 million people.  And a station that has 50,000 watts and mirrors the coverage of CHCH. 

Disagree that CHCH has given up on prime time.  How so?  Name me an OTA station that has strong prime time programming right now.  And whenever the strike in Hollywood is over, I don't think we are going to see prime time bouncing back quickly on any OTA outlet. 

CHCH and CKOC could have had a unique situation with cross promotion, in a unique market with two unique stations.  And it would have been interesting to see what they might have achieved. 

Yes these solutions are old school, even smaller market.  Radio's strength is being local and this is what would be offered.  Something that has been lacking for too long. 

torontostan wrote:

Radiowiz wrote:

Is that including the Ti Cat games? I thought Ti cat games were helping.
 

0.9 share A25-54 includes it. CFL ain't gonna move the needle lol

Thanks. I failed to realize that CFL was already included in that, plus, CFL is not year round anyway. 
 

National advertising in radio has become less and less important to medium sized markets like Hamilton.  And you are correct Jody this is partially because national relies on spill over from Toronto radio, and the sizable listenership for Toronto stations.

However, local advertisers in Hamilton/Niagara wouldn't advertise on Toronto radio as a rule because of expense and Toronto stations don't normally make it a habit of catering local businesses outside of the GTA.

CHCH is already starting to do what I am talking about.  Yes they have national advertising but their focus is now on local/regional clients.  There is a whole layer of advertisers that haven't been catered to by radio and TV for years.  These larger local/regional companies do have advertising/marketing budgets and many have access to co-op advertising money that often is not utilized.

Also Hamilton/Niagara/Halton/Peel and area has a sizable rural community that has been ignored by most stations. These rural areas have large businesses that serve the farming and rural community.  Farm equipment dealers have access to large amounts of co-op dollars for advertising and promotion.  Virtually none of this ends up on radio, even country music radio.  Gross farm receipts in this area totals about $1.5 billion per year.  

This would be a focus of CHCH/CKOC.  A fantasy,  a dream?  Yes it is.  But eventually somebody will roll up their sleeves and do the hard work on something like this and I believe it could be a success.
 
Individuals and companies like this realize that the local TV and radio is a service to your listeners,  viewers, advertisers and community.  You are working for them, and not the other way around which too often is the current attitude.
 
When you work and act this way, good things tend to happen!

darcyh wrote:

With CJBK 1290 now silent, and given the market in London, is there any chance that someone could make use of that frequency and launch a new station?

 

Zero. It would have been sold like CKWW or CKOC if that were in the cards.

darcyh wrote:

RadioAaron wrote:

darcyh wrote:

They should leave CKWW 580 the way it is.


 

Unprofitable?

Perhaps. I don't know if CKWW makes any money for Bell Media. With no on air staff and full automation it should not be too costly to operate given it is in the same building as CKLW and probably shares the technical infrastructure. It has a smaller audience and probably an older demographic. But the listeners are quite likely loyal as the programming is unique. A small audience in a high population market is still considerable. Its night time signal is also decent for AM in the Detroit area. Without knowing what the station sold for it is difficult to speculate on its potential profitability. Possible advertisers in the Detroit market could be auto dealerships, medical services, retirement residences and home renovation services.
 

The only way to make this work would be a partnership with an existing Detroit radio group that sees value in using the station as a flanker and an add-on to existing sales packages.

paterson1 wrote:

Zoomer 740 sounds like they are doing well since most of their shows are sponsored and they have carved out a unique advertising and programming niche that nobody else is doing. 

I know they benefit with the cable fees from the companies 4 channels, but surely most of this goes towards running the television operation.  Zoomer Radio sounds like a successful radio station with mature and professional on air talent and news. The number of voices heard on Zoomer 740 puts Newstalk 1010 to shame. 

Radio lost over $1M last year for Zoomer, and that's with Classical likely being profitable.
https://www.zoomermedia.ca/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/ZoomerMedia-FY2022-Audited-Financial-Statements.pdf

Your cable bills are keeping that station running.

AM-Man wrote:

AM radio is dying for the very same reason Hollywood is dying. Lower standards, and left leaning woke bs. The people on AM radio today are for the most part horrible at their jobs, that's because if you fit the category they are looking for you are hired! The best of the best don't matter today. Even this board is a left leaning echo chamber.    

OK there "Free-Dumb Fella".  This situation has ZERO to do with politics.  I'm not bothered by it being brought up, but it's not a valid comment.

AM-Man wrote:

AM radio is dying for the very same reason Hollywood is dying. Lower standards, and left leaning woke bs. The people on AM radio today are for the most part horrible at their jobs, that's because if you fit the category they are looking for you are hired! The best of the best don't matter today. Even this board is a left leaning echo chamber.    

Broadcast Dialogue notes a few well known names that were let go in the Bell Media purge, but who may have gotten lost in the fallout. 

Richard Madan, who was their Washington correspondent for a time, is out. He originally worked at City TV in Toronto and was with CTV for six years. 

And David George-Cosh, who worked for BNN Bloomberg for five years and frequently appeared on CTV's Noon and Six PM News to explain business stories, is also gone.