The only question: Didn't Riv continue to do PM Drive for the summer before he headed to MIX - or maybe that was just a swing shift?

Paul Jeffries wrote:

It's interesting how these two stations bucked the trend of "young people don't listen to AM radio anymore", which started to take hold around the late '80s/early '90s. (Nowadays, you could take the "AM" out that equation).

Up until then, CFTR's CHR format leaned towards a more adult-style approach from about late 1983 to about early 1989. Later in the year, when Jesse & Gene arrived at the station and then in 1990 when Tarzan Dan joined the crew, they took a more youthful, "in-your-face" approach with their "All-Hits 680 CFTR" branding. Even the station ID's were more aggressive-sounding than in previous years.

Although CFTR's ratings weren't near what they were at their peak, they still performed quite decently during their final CHR years, and AM 640 made a pretty good go of it too for a couple of years, picking up the slack when CFTR abandoned music in 1993 for all news 



PJ

Good points Paul and all very true.  One thing that both CFTR and AM 640 did well was to keep the personality in radio.  All of the jocks at both stations had lots of personality and this definitely helped with the youth and younger audience.  Tarzan Dan was one of the best anywhere and the kids loved him.  When I heard him do a phone call with the listener, he always had fun with whoever he put on the air.  Back then even though FM was playing more of the hits, you didn't get the fun announcers like on TR and AM 640, and this also prolonged their stay a little longer.  CFTR was also simulcast on FM, don't know about AM 640. 

grilled.cheese wrote:

I recall someone having a portable radio in elementary school and it was tuned to 640 and Ace of Base's "The Sign" was playing



 

Thats what im talking about 

As some of you may remember, AM 640 was planning to go all-news but 680 beat them to it.

It would have been called "AM 640 - The News Beat of Toronto."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJBzleqNM_w

Last edited by Dale Patterson (June 24, 2021 11:50 am)

paterson1 wrote:

One thing that both CFTR and AM 640 did well was to keep the personality in radio.  All of the jocks at both stations had lots of personality and this definitely helped with the youth and younger audience.  Tarzan Dan was one of the best anywhere and the kids loved him.  When I heard him do a phone call with the listener, he always had fun with whoever he put on the air.  Back then even though FM was playing more of the hits, you didn't get the fun announcers like on TR and AM 640, and this also prolonged their stay a little longer.  CFTR was also simulcast on FM, don't know about AM 640. 

Magic 102 and Kiss 98five had great announcers for CFTR to compete with.  
The only reason why top 40 lasted on AM for as long as it did is because of the 49% non hit rule for FM that protected AM radio in Canada.
It's too bad CFTR was NEVER simulcast on FM. That would have been nice.

If you trap yourself to your cable at home you could listen to CFTR on Cable 92.3 FM 
and
AM 640 on 96.9 Cable FM.  
Once you leave your home there was no "FM simulcast" for the car or anywhere else...& no Smart phone to listen to on either. 
One could split their cable back then so they didn't have to keep rotating between cable in the TV and cable in their stereo, but again, it traps you to your home. NO other source, like walkman or something...

paterson1 wrote:

Yes you are correct, they weren't simulcast but carried on cable fm.  Wasn't sure about AM 640.  The non hit was not the only reason that AM remained popular for music but it was a factor.  However regardless of hit/nonhit, AM in the late 80's and early 90's was already being taken over by FM for music.  Did anyone in Toronto really listen to Magic 102 and Kiss 98 that much?  Radio people who wanted to hear the hits on FM sure, but the average listener, I don't know. As I recall their signals weren't always that great.  Out of town listenership in Toronto has never been very high. 

Magic 102 & WKSE were enjoyed by many who prefer music on FM in the Scarborough area, but I'm not sure about other parts of Toronto. 
I know this because I had a paper route in a bunch of apartment buildings. Back in those days collecting money (payment for paper delivery) was done door to door. Hearing various radios was not a problem. 

 

markow202 wrote:

Wasnt CHUM FM also an option?  I dont remember if they were the HOT AC type format or more less pop than those but still along the same lines as of today I believe.  

Well, to be fair, CHUM FM did have the advantage of literally new music.
If it was Canadian, the CRTC allowed it to count as a non hit for one year. 
After that, the 49% non hit rule for FM was very strict.  
 

markow202 wrote:

Wasnt CHUM FM also an option?  I dont remember if they were the HOT AC type format or more less pop than those but still along the same lines as of today I believe.  

I believe CHUM-FM billed themselves as "Adult Rock" during that time, which was from about 1985-1995. More hits-oriented than their previous album rock format, but geared towards a more mature audience than a typical CHR station, and generally quite a bit softer than a typical hits station. Stuff like Bon Jovi and Aerosmith were considered too hard for CHUM-FM at that time.

Baby boomers appeared to be the ears that were the most attractive to radio stations and advertisers during that period. This presentation probably best describes their format during that time. 






PJ

 

Last edited by Paul Jeffries (June 24, 2021 11:10 pm)

paterson1 wrote:

Yes you are correct, they weren't simulcast but carried on cable fm.  Wasn't sure about AM 640.  The non hit was not the only reason that AM remained popular for music but it was a factor.  However regardless of hit/nonhit, AM in the late 80's and early 90's was already being taken over by FM for music.  Did anyone in Toronto really listen to Magic 102 and Kiss 98 that much?  Radio people who wanted to hear the hits on FM sure, but the average listener, I don't know. As I recall their signals weren't always that great.  Out of town listenership in Toronto has never been very high. 

When I was still listening to Top 40 in the 1980's, it is the Canadian 49% not hit rule that drove me to Majic102 and KISS98.5. Living in Oakville at the time, both stations could be heard at home or in the car extremely well

grilled.cheese wrote:

All roads lead to CHUM.

Its a good station but just wish it wasnt so bubble gum now.  Whatever works. 

Their sound quality I must say is the best ive ever heard, whatever they did.  

CHFI is very much AC; only 10-15% current, most of which would be recurrent elsewhere. Lots of gold, spanning almost 40 years, leaning on the softer side.

Same as it ever was. Definition is the same - CHFI is what that definition sounds like in 2021.

Dale Patterson wrote:

mace wrote:

paterson1 wrote:

Yes you are correct, they weren't simulcast but carried on cable fm.  Wasn't sure about AM 640.  The non hit was not the only reason that AM remained popular for music but it was a factor.  However regardless of hit/nonhit, AM in the late 80's and early 90's was already being taken over by FM for music.  Did anyone in Toronto really listen to Magic 102 and Kiss 98 that much?  Radio people who wanted to hear the hits on FM sure, but the average listener, I don't know. As I recall their signals weren't always that great.  Out of town listenership in Toronto has never been very high. 

When I was still listening to Top 40 in the 1980's, it is the Canadian 49% not hit rule that drove me to Majic102 and KISS98.5. Living in Oakville at the time, both stations could be heard at home or in the car extremely well

I also stopped listening to most Canadian FMs in the '80s because of the silly non-hit rule and the overabundance of Can-Con burn-outs. Typical bureaucratic overthink - making the emerging FMs sound worse just to prop up AM for a few years. I listened to WPHD, WBUF and WHTT in the '80s with FM 108 the only Canadian outlet I could stomach.

Well we can quibble about the hit/nonhit forever.  I never minded it, and the fact that it tended to be "radio people" that had an issue with it, and not the general public speaks for itself.  It was during this split that FM took over AM radio in the ratings regardless, so it didn't really harm FM from a competitive point of view.  I know radio folks won't agree with that but the fact is 95% of the listeners weren't aware of the regulation anyway and likely didn't care.  Burn out of cancon falls more on the station and programming than anything else in my opinion.  Don't think the intention of the regulation was to make FM sound worse than AM.  Never heard that argument before!  Regs don't make stations sound good or bad, programming does!  Regulations often are just an excuse to do nothing, and as we know, lots of radio folks love to do nothing... other than complain... 

paterson1 wrote:

Dale Patterson wrote:

mace wrote:

When I was still listening to Top 40 in the 1980's, it is the Canadian 49% not hit rule that drove me to Majic102 and KISS98.5. Living in Oakville at the time, both stations could be heard at home or in the car extremely well

I also stopped listening to most Canadian FMs in the '80s because of the silly non-hit rule and the overabundance of Can-Con burn-outs. Typical bureaucratic overthink - making the emerging FMs sound worse just to prop up AM for a few years. I listened to WPHD, WBUF and WHTT in the '80s with FM 108 the only Canadian outlet I could stomach.

Well we can quibble about the hit/nonhit forever.  I never minded it, and the fact that it tended to be "radio people" that had an issue with it, and not the general public speaks for itself.  It was during this split that FM took over AM radio in the ratings regardless, so it didn't really harm FM from a competitive point of view.  I know radio folks won't agree with that but the fact is 95% of the listeners weren't aware of the regulation anyway and likely didn't care.  Burn out of cancon falls more on the station and programming than anything else in my opinion.  Don't think the intention of the regulation was to make FM sound worse than AM.  Never heard that argument before!  Regs don't make stations sound good or bad, programming does!  Regulations often are just an excuse to do nothing, and as we know, lots of radio folks love to do nothing... other than complain... 

>> Don't think the intention of the regulation was to make FM sound worse than AM.

But it did. That was the whole point of it, to keep listeners on AM rather than FM. You're right, a good programmer could overcome that. But why should they have to?

Add to that the Foreground and Mosiac rules and you have a perfect example of over-regulation.

Luckily the U.S. stations (including satellite) come in loud and clear and the gov't can't do a thing about it.
 

Last edited by Dale Patterson (June 25, 2021 9:22 pm)

As always good points Dale.  However to say that FM sounded worse than AM is kind of subjective.  1985/86 CHUM FM was leading the ratings, so they couldn't have sounded that bad since they were beating the AM competition who were playing the hits.  CHUM FM was also playing the hits, and they were playing album cuts that most people would be familiar with.  The Eagles, Bryan Adams, Supertramp, U2, Culture Club, Celine Dion, Phil Collins etc..etc. all had albums that sold over a million copies in Canada and people would be familiar with most if not all of the music from these albums. 

When CHUM, CKFM, CFNY, CHFI played another cut from albums like these, it wasn't necessary a bad thing.  And they would choose the album cuts carefully.  This was also true with new material, and stations would not only play the hit, but also played another cut, which usually became the second hit from the album. 

CKFM's punishment for playing too many hits seems kind of silly, however they were likely "outed" by a competitor since it had been happening for a while. And that competitor correctly expected the CRTC to do something about it.  Was CKFM giving listeners what they wanted?  Maybe, but they were also doing it because they were somewhat an "also ran" in the ratings.  They were smart to make a promotion out of the slap on the wrist from the CRTC.  And CKFM was even able to pick the days that they ran commercial free, giving them lots of time to promote this special event to their audience.  They made lemonade out of lemons, brilliant move!

It is interesting too that border and opportunistic US stations that have existed over the years have not been successful.  Stations in small US border towns for years have come and gone to try and skim off revenue from the larger Canadian market to the north.    Over the years stations across from Kingston, Brockville, Cornwall, Montreal even Detroit have tried to play the "don't let the government tell you what to listen to" game but have largely failed or had little impact. In the case of Detroit, it was because too many in Michigan were listening to Windsor's 89X.  

These stations have always played the hits, didn't need to play any cancon and in the case of WYUL Chateaugay NY bills itself as a Montreal station and even have some weather forecasts and commercials in French.  But the music and announcers are all English.   They derive most of their revenue from advertisers in Montreal, Cornwall and have tried to crack Ottawa.  That's fine and fair game, but fortunately these stations have had spotty success over the years.  Many of the stations were owned by a Canadian, and run by his company Martz Communications.   Over the years most of these stations were closed or sold with the new owners focusing more on the local US market.   WYUL has been the most successful of this group, but it's impact in Montreal, Cornwall and Ottawa and area has been interesting but also limited. 

Last edited by paterson1 (June 26, 2021 1:28 pm)

Lorne wrote:

I recall hearing a "special" weekend on FM108 when they played songs that didn't make the top 40. I don't remember if I eventually heard why they did this, but I certainly wonder if it was also because they had gotten into trouble with the CRTC over the non-hit requirement. I do remember becoming aware that there were certain songs that they would play that had just missed the top 40, been hits elsewhere, etc. to help meet the non-hit requirement. 

Wasn't FM 108 trying to be more oldies driven? If so, that rules out the opportunity to play new Canadian music for a full year before counting it as hit music. 
They were very smart, I think, for finding a creative way to work with the 49% non hit rule that existed back then. 

...and B-sides, wasn't it...lol, never mind I just threw this sentence in on purpose because I couldn't resist.