The Southern Ontario/WNY Radio-TV Forum » It’s Z103.5 in Orangeville. You Hear Me??? It’s ORANGEVILLE!!!

RadioActive · December 18, 2017 3:58 pm

There’s been some discussion on these pages in the past about fringe radio stations using their proximity to Toronto to get in on the biggest market share in Canada, even though they’re not actually supposed to be broadcasting to an audience here.

Which brings us to probably the worst offender in that category, the infamous CIDC-FM, aka 103.5 FM. The station is actually an Orangeville outlet (although their studios are located in Etobicoke.) But the CRTC wasn’t exactly convinced they’ve been serving their home market and in a strongly worded ruling on Monday, they told the Evanov owners to get their act together and change that – or else.

And they’ve now made it a condition of licence - which has officially been renewed until August 2023 - to make sure that happens.

Effective immediately the CRTC says the station must:

- ensure that all station identification announcements broadcast on CIDC-FM Orangeville make specific reference to Orangeville, Ontario and do not refer exclusively to Toronto, Ontario.

- ensure that CIDC-FM Orangeville provides, on a regular basis during each broadcast day, coverage of local news, sports, events and activities that take place in Orangeville, Ontario and are of direct and particular relevance to Orangeville, and that do not relate exclusively to Toronto, Ontario.

-ensure that CIDC-FM Orangeville provides, on a regular basis during each broadcast day, traffic and weather reports that are of direct and particular relevance to areas within the station’s authorized market, including Orangeville, Ontario, and that do not relate exclusively to Toronto, Ontario.

You gotta love how those pleading the station’s case tried to work their way around this. They actually had the chutzpah to tell the Commission they’d be happy to revert to the Orangeville I.D. – but only if every other station in the same condition did it, too. They were apparently referring to Corus outlets like AM 640, which is technically based in Richmond Hill and CFNY, originally licenced to serve Brampton.

They also insisted the reason they don’t do much if any Orangeville traffic is because “Orangeville proper does not have a traffic problem that requires constant up-to-the-minute reporting.”

Yeah, nice try.

I can’t remember the last time, if ever, I listened to Z103.5. I’m way out of their demo. But I have to admit I’ll be tuning in randomly at the top of the hour soon to see if Orangeville is anywhere in their station I.D. – and how they might try to get around this new edict.

(By the way, they were also cited for some funny business with CanCon, and if you’re interested, you can read about that and the entire ruling here.)

RadioActive · December 18, 2017 4:41 pm

I can't quite recall the CRTC ever making a specific on air ID location an actual condition of licence. It may have happened before but I'm not aware of it.

And by the way, when it comes to their CanCon sins, this is pretty strong language:

"In the Commission’s view, Dufferin, as an experienced broadcaster that is owned by Evanov Radio Group (which owns and operates multiple radio stations across Canada) should have been fully aware of its regulatory obligations, and should have mechanisms in place to ensure that all of its stations are operated in compliance at all times with requirements relating to the broadcast of Canadian content."

Ouch. I'm frankly surprised they gave them a full 5-year renewal, given the number of problems they cite.

December 18, 2017 4:56 pm

They are now most definitely not getting that 103.5/7 signal shuffle.

markow202 · December 18, 2017 8:17 pm

Oh wow as a long time 103 listener in my younger years, this is gonna be interesting to hear on their station. NOBODY knows its an Orangeville station when asked.

Radiowiz · December 18, 2017 8:57 pm

markow202 wrote:
Oh wow as a long time 103 listener in my younger years, this is gonna be interesting to hear on their station. NOBODY knows its an Orangeville station when asked.

Did anyone even know DC 103 five once existed? It used to sound a bit like CHUM FM before switching over to Hot 103.

Fjiri · December 18, 2017 10:05 pm

A check of z1035.com reveals that they've updated their website with local Orangeville news stories, a service farmed out to Muskoka411.com

However, they've completely buried these local stories. The only way to access them is by going to "Information" on their menu bar, and hitting "Local News", which happens to be the second option below "What You Need to Know". The latter contains all of their Toronto/GTA-centric stories.

Their main page only features their "What You Need to Know" news feed. No other option for accessing Orangeville's "local news".

They might want to update their "Advertise with Z103.5" section - only makes reference to Toronto.

Does the CRTC smackdown on Z103 include website content as well?

Last edited by Fjiri (December 18, 2017 10:06 pm)

Radiowiz · December 19, 2017 1:08 am

Fjiri wrote:
Does the CRTC smackdown on Z103 include website content as well?

CRTC does use web pages mainly to prove that a station is not serving their market of licence properly.
The most recent great example may have been when 1220 CHSC had a "1220 RADIO UNO Toronto" web page.

December 19, 2017 9:03 am

RadioActive wrote:
I can't quite recall the CRTC ever making a specific on air ID location an actual condition of licence. It may have happened before but I'm not aware of it.

And by the way, when it comes to their CanCon sins, this is pretty strong language:

"In the Commission’s view, Dufferin, as an experienced broadcaster that is owned by Evanov Radio Group (which owns and operates multiple radio stations across Canada) should have been fully aware of its regulatory obligations, and should have mechanisms in place to ensure that all of its stations are operated in compliance at all times with requirements relating to the broadcast of Canadian content."

Ouch. I'm frankly surprised they gave them a full 5-year renewal, given the number of problems they cite.

Most stations get 7 years now instead of 5.
Psst. CRTC, if you're looking for other markets not being served by their local station there are stations in Woodstock, Brampton, Richmond Hill, and Newmarket you might want to listen to.

Radiowiz · December 19, 2017 9:06 am

Prod Guy wrote:
Psst. CRTC, if you're looking for other markets not being served by their local station there are stations in Woodstock, Brampton, Richmond Hill, and Newmarket you might want to listen to.

Why are you dragging Newmarket into this? It's not about where they broadcast from, it's about what they actually broadcast.

markow202 · December 19, 2017 7:29 pm

Radiowiz wrote:
markow202 wrote:
Oh wow as a long time 103 listener in my younger years, this is gonna be interesting to hear on their station. NOBODY knows its an Orangeville station when asked.
Did anyone even know DC 103 five once existed? It used to sound a bit like CHUM FM before switching over to Hot 103.

Yes I remember hearing DC 103. Hot 103/Hits 103 was my elementary/high school station while growing up! They were amazing...such good dance music which is obviously super cheesy now when I hear one of those 90s eurodance tunes lol.

Their signal was even worse pre-year 2000 than now, when their old tower was just west of Orangeville!

December 19, 2017 8:21 pm

RadioActive wrote:
Psst. CRTC, if you're looking for other markets not being served by their local station there are stations in Woodstock, Brampton, Richmond Hill, and Newmarket you might want to listen to.

Brampton, Richmond Hill, and Newmarket are considered part of the Toronto market to the CRTC, Orangeville is not. The Corus Woodstock station certainly could be called onto the carpet if they're not careful, especially since they have 2 FMs in the London market. The Big Guys just tend to be better about making these things technically compliant.

splunge · December 19, 2017 11:21 pm

Woodstock has their own local... CIHR FM. Corus was ordered back to that city in the mid 2000s after they tried to centralize in London. Not that Corus or the community cares about CKDK....

TomSanders · December 20, 2017 1:15 am

Z 103.5 can be heard in Michigan during summer tropo conditions, sometimes all afternoon over WMUZ Detroit, and I've never heard Orangeville mentioned. While the Toronto club spots are playing, I'm thinking: but it's in ORANGEVILLE ...

markow202 · December 20, 2017 3:37 pm

Tim Brown 2016 wrote:
Background

I've lived in Orangeville. It's a small, charming, sleepy little place where not much happens. Orangevillians like it that way. In recent years, a tiny station for this little town was launched by MY FM on 101.5. With this launch, the radioscape in this small, somewhat isolated little town seemed in proportion. More recently, a powerhouse serving neighboring Shelburne came on the air. As a result, Dufferin County, population 56,881, has two FM radio stations. That's a lot of radio stations per capita. And that's without factoring in Z103.5 (in an attempt to make a point).

Some History

When FM frequency assignments were made in the 50s/60s, no one could foresee the enormous boom in population the city of Toronto would experience into the next century. With that in mind, and because of what are now dated guidelines around adjacent channel protections for the Buffalo market, Toronto ended up with a comparatively small number of Class B and C FM assignments - even relative to it's population back then. Markets neighboring Toronto - some of which are now in the GTA, were assigned B class FM frequencies that would have been technically feasible to broadcast from Toronto.

It is important to note that 103.5 was originally assigned to Guelph, not Orangeville. The original applicant for CIDC back in the 80s was able to persuade the DOC (at the time) and the CRTC to "move" the frequency assignment to Orangeville - likely with the hope of catching the western fringe of what we now know as the GTA.

Today

As a result of decades of growth and prosperity, Toronto has become the fourth largest city in North America, behind Los Angeles but ahead of Chicago. This applies regardless of metric (city proper, GTA, or regional population).

It light of its population, Toronto has a relatively low number of FM stations broadcasting within it's boundaries.

One of the CRTC's core goals is to offer as much diversity as possible in a given market. Without getting into the subjective discussions around format or owner, I would suggest the public (at large) is much better served by having 103.5 aiming it's programming at Toronto (essentially the GTA) and ignoring Orangeville. Remember, we're talking about a C1 class frequency here.

On a related matter, the Commission has declined a number of applications in recent years from stations close to the GTA boundary who wanted to improve their coverage into the city. In my judegement these applications should have been approved - as a small way of compensating for the lack of foresight the original spectrum planners had when they were doing the frequency plan for Toronto.

Very good point. And yes, to come to think of it this Orangeville Dufferin County area now has more than enough radio stations covering. Z103's format is more oriented to the GTA/Toronto also (always was). Don't know of much folk in Orangeville that are into club hits.

Radiowiz · December 20, 2017 6:32 pm

Isn't My FM doing the old DC 103 five format currently? Or is it slightly different?

RadioActive · December 20, 2017 8:22 pm

Tim Brown 2016 wrote:
103.5 was originally assigned to Guelph, not Orangeville. The original applicant for CIDC back in the 80s was able to persuade the DOC (at the time) and the CRTC to "move" the frequency assignment to Orangeville - likely with the hope of catching the western fringe of what we now know as the GTA.

If you believe the Wikipedia entry on the station, the frequency was moved to Orangeville because of a tragedy that the town wasn't prepared for.

"The Orangeville area was struck by a massive F4 tornado on May 31, 1985, and the community felt it did not receive adequate warning. As such, an application was made to the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission (CRTC) for a radio station to serve Orangeville. CRTC approval was given for the station on September 10, 1986. The station's frequency allocation was moved from Guelph to Orangeville to allow for the service."

splunge · December 20, 2017 11:25 pm

i think everyone is missing the point. according to the broadcast act and crtc local programming policy, a station is required to offer spoken word of direct and particular relevance to the market it is licensed to serve.

Therefore, CIDC, being a station licensed to orangeville, is in breach of policy.... the rule of law.... and the owners are quite happy to flaunt that fact. our friends at the crtc are only enforcing what they have to work with, objectively.

Radiowiz · December 21, 2017 12:03 am

With no rumour or fact intended, based also on the information above, how soon before Evanov sells 103five to MY FM? (Or vice versa?)
Two Orangeville stations generating revenue in the same pocket would be more beneficial than two separate owners, right?

markow202 · December 21, 2017 2:03 pm

The station would probably do good with a country music or classic rock and today hits variety for that area

Dan Sys · December 21, 2017 7:27 pm

A similar scenario happened a decade ago with Rogers CKCL 107.5 Chilliwack, CKCL-1 92.5 Abbotsford, & CKCL-2 104.9 Vancouver (now CKKS, CKKS-1, CKKS-2......KISS FM). The ruling was a little more strict as they were required to give out their legal ID every 30 minutes.
http://www.crtc.gc.ca/eng/archive/2007/db2007-148.htm

Last edited by Dan Sys (December 21, 2017 7:31 pm)

December 23, 2017 12:37 am

markow202 wrote:
The station would probably do good with a country music or classic rock and today hits variety for that area

Country is covered by Shelburne station and the today's hit variety is covered by MyFM. Big 101 and Rock 95 both cover the area from Barrie, so I don't think any of those formats are a good idea.

Jonny · December 23, 2017 11:21 am

Prod Guy wrote:
Country is covered by . . .

let us not overlook CKNX AM 920 Wingham and FM 93.7 Country 93 Owen Sound, both with true manure * play lists at select times of day & night

* - I mean that in a true, country way

RadioPaulPA · December 29, 2017 11:39 am

From about 170 miles south at my house in Ridgway, Pennsylvania here's how Z103.5 CIDC sounded on Monday December 11th at 730am, click the google drive link to play back the audio right in your browser:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Hdus7xLz7eVVERN_fPbfJQuVY6ZeizeQ/view?usp=sharing

I have even had the Z103.5 RDS light up my radio from time to time:

Last edited by RadioPaulPA (December 29, 2017 11:39 am)

markow202 · December 29, 2017 12:15 pm

RadioPaulPA wrote:
From about 170 miles south at my house in Ridgway, Pennsylvania here's how Z103.5 CIDC sounded on Monday December 11th at 730am, click the google drive link to play back the audio right in your browser:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Hdus7xLz7eVVERN_fPbfJQuVY6ZeizeQ/view?usp=sharing

I have even had the Z103.5 RDS light up my radio from time to time:

WHOA!

What about Toronto or any other stations from up here?

Radiowiz · December 29, 2017 1:51 pm

markow202 wrote:
WHOA!
What about Toronto or any other stations from up here?

You missed the point. Bathurst & Dupont is not Orangeville. Neither is the spot on the Highway they covered.

RadioPaulPA · December 29, 2017 2:39 pm

markow202 wrote:
WHOA!

What about Toronto or any other stations from up here?

Last edited by RadioPaulPA (December 29, 2017 2:40 pm)

mace · December 29, 2017 2:45 pm

Hi RadioPaulpa. I also would love to know if you have been able to receive any other FM stations in the Toronto and surrounding area. The only Pa. stations that I receive when the conditions are right are STAR104 and NASH97.9 from Erie and WRRN 92.3 in Warren. Back in the early 80's, I once picked up a station in Beaver Falls at 106.7. Can't remember the call letters.

RadioPaulPA · December 29, 2017 2:53 pm

mace wrote:
Hi RadioPaulpa. I also would love to know if you have been able to receive any other FM stations in the Toronto and surrounding area. The only Pa. stations that I receive when the conditions are right are STAR104 and NASH97.9 from Erie and WRRN 92.3 in Warren. Back in the early 80's, I once picked up a station in Beaver Falls at 106.7. Can't remember the call letters.

106.7 is now WAOB, catholic radio. It's like a semi local from 100 miles away.

Star 104 is 80 miles west of me and lights up my RDS every time.

If you see my previous post on the previous page I list some stations and audio clips of what I've heard.

Hrick · December 31, 2017 7:09 pm

According to the latest census, the population of Orangeville is about 31,000. How many towns this size in Canada have two local radio stations? It's ridiculous that the CRTC is still demanding that Z103.5 identify as an Orangeville station. The CRTC has treated them very badly and it's no surprise that they are now requesting an increase in power for their Proud station in Toronto. As a business, what would you do if you were them?

Back in the late 70's, CFNY in Brampton was granted a huge increase in power to make listening to 102.5 from Buffalo difficult in the GTA as they had attracted a large share of the Ontario advertising dollars. Today CFNY identifies as a Toronto radio station and as the GTA has expanded considerably in the last 40 years, Orangeville today is part of the GTA just as Brampton was back then.

RadioActive · December 31, 2017 9:38 pm

Hrick wrote:
Back in the late 70's, CFNY in Brampton was granted a huge increase in power to make listening to 102.5 from Buffalo difficult in the GTA as they had attracted a large share of the Ontario advertising dollars.

The time I started hating the CRTC as a kid can be traced back to two days - and the CFNY insane power boost was one of them. How a station essentially broadcasting to their parking lot at 857 watts was suddenly allowed to go to 100,000 watts was outrageous and ridiculous.

And yes, I well remember what it did to WBEN-FM the day it happened and I always suspected that was the exact reason, especially since the Allen Brothers, who owned what was then CHIC-FM, weren't exactly the paragon of broadcasters.

The second thing the Commission, through Industry Canada, did that infuriated me was allowing CBLT to move from Channel 6 to Channel 5 (presumably to make way for Global's stick in Desoronto, although surely there were other VHF options available) causing such horrendous interference on Buffalo's Channel 4 that it was all but obliterated for those of us watching on antenna - which in those days, most were. I remember my father buying an adjustable trap back then and WBEN-TV was restored, but it was never as clear again until the switch to digital.

I always compared this to the Iron Curtain. When the old Soviet Union jammed Western radio and TV signals into Russia, everyone agreed it was a terrible thing. But when Canada blocked a Buffalo station here, well, that was somehow protecting our sovereignty, that's just fine. Such hypocrisy.

And even though I no longer listen to what is now WTSS-FM and can get Channel 4's digital signal OTA just fine most days, thinking back on this still makes me angry. This protectionist crap continues to go on with simsub on cable (the Super Bowl excepted!) And yes, I'm well aware of the rights issues and the mess that causes. It's the main reason why I refuse to subscribe to cable even now.

It was wrong then. And it's still wrong today.