The Southern Ontario/WNY Radio-TV Forum » Whatever Happened To Buffalo Radio Reception In Toronto?

RadioActive · May 19, 2021 5:51 pm

There was a time about a decade and more ago that a large number of Buffalo FM stations boomed into Toronto, often as if they were locals. Stations like WBUF, WDGE, WGRF and WHTT were easily heard here, even when conditions were less than perfect.

I'm aware that in some cases, other stations have signed on near or even on the same frequency (97 Rock and Radio Humber, aka CKHC are both on 96.9, for example, and WYRK and CFPT, the Indigenous outlet, both occupy 106.5, shutting out the farther signal.)

But I used to be able to get what was then WYSL-FM at 103.3 perfectly. The same with Oldies 104 at 104.1. WBLK came in perfectly and so did WBUF. Now - nothing.

I recall reading a few years ago that some of these stations moved their transmitters to the south in Buffalo for some reason, and by putting them farther away, it reduced the way they came in here. It was bad enough when the CN Tower came on. But now, outside of superpowered grandfathered stations like WTSS (the old Rock 102) and WDCX at 99.5 and WSKE in Niagara Falls, N.Y., FM on Buffalo is all but gone.

While you could never really get WKBW clearly on this side of the border, most of the AMs were very clear here, too. Now it's almost all static on WBEN-AM or WDCZ 970, if you ever choose to tune them in.

What happened to kill Buffalo radio in this city? I miss the days when you could easily get both the locals and the ones from across the border.

fybush · May 19, 2021 8:28 pm

103.3 has been at the same transmitter location (Fillmore Street, near the interchange of routes 33 and 198) since 1978, and 104.1 has been at the same location in South Buffalo for as long as it's been on the air.

So what's changed? Higher overall noise levels, less sensitive receivers, in the case of 103.3 possibly adjacent-channel interference from Z103.5.

I don't get the Buffalo signals here in Rochester the way I did in the 80s, either.

mace · May 19, 2021 8:41 pm

For those at home with a Sonos box, some of the Buffalo FM's are available crystal clear. 98.5 and 102,5 are available through radio.com. 96.9, 103.3 and 104.1 can be heard through mytuner.

RadioActive · May 19, 2021 8:58 pm

fybush wrote:
103.3 has been at the same transmitter location (Fillmore Street, near the interchange of routes 33 and 198) since 1978, and 104.1 has been at the same location in South Buffalo for as long as it's been on the air.

So what's changed? Higher overall noise levels, less sensitive receivers, in the case of 103.3 possibly adjacent-channel interference from Z103.5.

I don't get the Buffalo signals here in Rochester the way I did in the 80s, either.

Apparently, my memory ain't what it used to be. I found another of your posts from last year that helps explain a lot of what is going on, at least as far as WBUF, WGRF and a few others are concerned.

https://gta.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?pid=40116#p40116

How do you explain the AMs not propagating into Toronto like they used to? WBEN, for instance, always came in strong, even at night. Same with the original WEBR when it was at 970. Now you can't even get them during the daytime. The only real AMer from the Queen City I can hear clearly is WGR. And even that doesn't seem as strong as it used to be.

Hansa · May 19, 2021 10:33 pm

RadioActive wrote:
fybush wrote:
103.3 has been at the same transmitter location (Fillmore Street, near the interchange of routes 33 and 198) since 1978, and 104.1 has been at the same location in South Buffalo for as long as it's been on the air.

So what's changed? Higher overall noise levels, less sensitive receivers, in the case of 103.3 possibly adjacent-channel interference from Z103.5.

I don't get the Buffalo signals here in Rochester the way I did in the 80s, either.
Apparently, my memory ain't what it used to be. I found another of your posts from last year that helps explain a lot of what is going on, at least as far as WBUF, WGRF and a few others are concerned.

https://gta.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?pid=40116#p40116

How do you explain the AMs not propagating into Toronto like they used to? WBEN, for instance, always came in strong, even at night. Same with the original WEBR when it was at 970. Now you can't even get them during the daytime. The only real AMer from the Queen City I can hear clearly is WGR. And even that doesn't seem as strong as it used to be.

I remember listening to GR55 (WGR 550) in the 70s.

Last edited by Hansa (May 19, 2021 10:33 pm)

mjf · May 20, 2021 10:17 am

HD radio came and wiped out a lot of adjacent signals. 88.7 (WBFO), 89.1 (CKYY), 94.5 (WNED), 96.1 (WMSX) and 103.3 (WEDG) are all wiped out by adjacent HD stations. I could receive all of those in Toronto, even with the first adjacent FM signals, before HD was turned on. WNED manages to push through sometimes due to its strong signal.

As far as AM goes, urban electrical interference has ruined AM radio. Move away from the city and you'll find all those "old" stations are still there.

markow202 · May 20, 2021 10:50 am

I find that the stations come in fine - maybe not the way it was before but they do come in decent on a good tuner or car. WKSE however has been killed by our 98.7

MJ Vancouver · May 20, 2021 1:21 pm

Hansa wrote:
RadioActive wrote:
fybush wrote:
103.3 has been at the same transmitter location (Fillmore Street, near the interchange of routes 33 and 198) since 1978, and 104.1 has been at the same location in South Buffalo for as long as it's been on the air.

So what's changed? Higher overall noise levels, less sensitive receivers, in the case of 103.3 possibly adjacent-channel interference from Z103.5.

I don't get the Buffalo signals here in Rochester the way I did in the 80s, either.
Apparently, my memory ain't what it used to be. I found another of your posts from last year that helps explain a lot of what is going on, at least as far as WBUF, WGRF and a few others are concerned.

https://gta.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?pid=40116#p40116

How do you explain the AMs not propagating into Toronto like they used to? WBEN, for instance, always came in strong, even at night. Same with the original WEBR when it was at 970. Now you can't even get them during the daytime. The only real AMer from the Queen City I can hear clearly is WGR. And even that doesn't seem as strong as it used to be.
I remember listening to GR55 (WGR 550) in the 70s.

WGR 550 comes in quite well west of Toronto as I recall. A decade ago when I was working around the Listowel/Mount Forest area I was listening to the NHL playoffs on that station, and it came in clearly in the early evening.

Never had gotten any other Buffalo AM in SW Ontario very reliably. No problem getting several Detroit or Cleveland stations, however.

Last edited by MJ Vancouver (May 20, 2021 1:22 pm)

fybush · May 20, 2021 2:53 pm

RadioActive wrote:
How do you explain the AMs not propagating into Toronto like they used to? WBEN, for instance, always came in strong, even at night. Same with the original WEBR when it was at 970. Now you can't even get them during the daytime. The only real AMer from the Queen City I can hear clearly is WGR. And even that doesn't seem as strong as it used to be.

On the AM side, the noise floor has risen immensely since the 80s. All those little switching power supplies in your cellphone charger and LED lamps and all the other electronics that are now in and around your house? They all make noise that adds up, and it's swamped the AM dial so that only the very strongest signals still get through the way they did.

The only thing that's happened to the transmitter plants is aging - it's also very likely that the ground systems aren't as intact as they were a generation ago, so there's probably not quite as much signal getting out as there once was. But that's only a slight change compared to what's happened at the reception end.

The only Buffalo stations that have physically moved since the 1980s are 1080 (lost its site on LaSalle Ave. and is now diplexed on the WECK-1230 tower on Genesee St.) and 1270 (moved from Grand Island to diplex on the 970 site). Everyone else is exactly where they've been.

RadioActive · May 20, 2021 3:45 pm

Very interesting, as always. I recall a WBEN engineer telling me about this, which also contributes to my not being able to get it here like I used to.

mjf · May 20, 2021 4:16 pm

fybush wrote:
The only Buffalo stations that have physically moved since the 1980s are 1080 (lost its site on LaSalle Ave. and is now diplexed on the WECK-1230 tower on Genesee St.) and 1270 (moved from Grand Island to diplex on the 970 site).

I find that 550, 930 and 970 all still come in very well in the west end of Toronto if I'm in a location with lower noise. 1270 is the one station that barely comes in now. I guess the move from Grand Island explains why.

Radiowiz · May 20, 2021 5:13 pm

In Scarborough, I recall Z 103 would act like a weak signal & Buffalo's Edge 103.3 would come in a lot easier.
That seems to have changed in recent years.

fybush · May 21, 2021 12:15 am

RadioActive wrote:
Very interesting, as always. I recall a WBEN engineer telling me about this, which also contributes to my not being able to get it here like I used to.

We've used that same MDCL technology on WXXI 1370 since we installed a new Nautel transmitter three-ish years ago. It hasn't seemed to affect the range at all, at least not in my driving.

Fitz · May 21, 2021 10:10 am

markow202 wrote:
I find that the stations come in fine - maybe not the way it was before but they do come in decent on a good tuner or car. WKSE however has been killed by our 98.7

I would agree with you you say. I think the problem has mostly occurred due to the increase in signals but with a good tuner reception of most of the stations still possible. I did a scan today and granted the atmospherics are better now due to the season but I was able to capture most of the stations and even a few HD ( which usually is much more likely in the summer).

Buffalo Radio Scan May 21, 2021

Station ID's are heard on almost all stations. Location was the western part of Pickering close to Scarborough.Recorded on reel to reel tape.

1. WNED 94.5 ( was drifting in and out of HD)
2. WBLK 93.7
3. WBUF 92.9
4. 98.9 The Buzz ( Rochester)
5. 102.5 Star FM HD1
6. 102.5 HD2 Alt Buffalo
7. WEDG 103.3
8. 104.1 WHTT
9. 107.7 Alt Buffalo
10 !07.7 HD2 - New Arrivals ( looks like the Lake is no more on HD2)
11. 97.9 WRGF
12. WKSE 98.5
13. 101.1 More FM( Fort Erie Ontario)
14. WLVL 105.3 ( With Dave Macy who used to be on Oldies 104 doing traffic)
15. WGR 55
16. AM 930
17. WHAM 1180 AM ( Rochester )
18. WKBW 1520 AM
19. WBEN 970 AM
20. WBFO 94.5 HD2

Last edited by Fitz (May 21, 2021 12:44 pm)

mace · May 21, 2021 6:50 pm

I have also noticed the Buffalo FM's improve significantly in Scarborough and points further east. I live in the Avenue Rd/401 area and that seems to be the signal limit for 96.9's Humber Radio CKHC. In my neighbourhood, there is a 50/50 split between Humber and WGRF. Once you pass Yonge St. 97ROCK clears up nicely.

MJ Vancouver · May 21, 2021 6:59 pm

mace wrote:
I have also noticed the Buffalo FM's improve significantly in Scarborough and points further east. I live in the Avenue Rd/401 area and that seems to be the signal limit for 96.9's Humber Radio CKHC. In my neighbourhood, there is a 50/50 split between Humber and WGRF. Once you pass Yonge St. 97ROCK clears up nicely.

Likewise with TV. I used to know someone in Oshawa who had rabbit ears, and got WKBW in digital clearly. I never could get any Buffalo channels in digital where I lived in Toronto (near the 401 and Leslie), at least with rabbit ears.

Last edited by MJ Vancouver (May 21, 2021 6:59 pm)

mace · May 23, 2021 5:57 am

MJ Vancouver wrote:
mace wrote:
I have also noticed the Buffalo FM's improve significantly in Scarborough and points further east. I live in the Avenue Rd/401 area and that seems to be the signal limit for 96.9's Humber Radio CKHC. In my neighbourhood, there is a 50/50 split between Humber and WGRF. Once you pass Yonge St. 97ROCK clears up nicely.
Likewise with TV. I used to know someone in Oshawa who had rabbit ears, and got WKBW in digital clearly. I never could get any Buffalo channels in digital where I lived in Toronto (near the 401 and Leslie), at least with rabbit ears.

Years ago, when I still had my first ever tv [12" Zenith BW] I would take it out to Oakville when I visited my parents to see what kind of reception I could get on their backyard deck. The rabbit ears brought in 7,17 and 29 with very little effort and a pretty clear picture. 2 and 4 were a little trickier. A fuzzy but still viewable picture was the result.