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May 15, 2020 2:03 pm  #1


Rogers Loses Signal Improvement Bid For KISS-FM At CRTC

It’s not often a behemoth like Rogers goes to the CRTC and loses badly, but that’s what happened with a decision released by the Commission on Friday. And ironically, it comes after they were already granted permission to do what they wanted in 2002, but Industry Canada refused to approve it.
 
It involves CKIS-FM, aka KISS 92.5, which Rogers claims regularly gets interfered with by Rochester station WBEE-FM. Both are on the same frequency, using different antenna propagation methods. Rogers wanted a power boost from 4,700 watts to 9,000 while increasing their antenna height, to fix the problem.
 
The reasons behind their request are as interesting to me as the negative outcome.
 
First, Rogers complained that listeners would often find WBEE’s HD signal locking onto those equipped with those radios here. So they solved that by putting their own local HD signals on the frequency.
 
In its next go-round, Rogers submitted 165 reports from listeners complaining they couldn’t get the station in places like Oakville and Markham. But the CRTC pointed out many of the responses were from outside the market area and others weren’t specific enough.
 
Third, the owners beefed that thermal ducting – what most of us like to call DXing – would often play havoc with the signal locally in the summer. The CRTC’s response: that doesn’t happen often enough or affect enough people to be a proper reason for a power boost. And they noted the increase wouldn’t necessarily stop the interference in affected areas in any event.
 
Finally, the Commission commented that there are avenues for this kind of cross-border radio issue and Rogers never filed any objections with U.S. authorities. Strike three and out. Request Denied.
 
There are two other worthwhile items to note out of all this.
 
1) The CRTC received an intervention from Dufferin Communications (aka Evanov) about the application, and Rogers never even bothered to reply to it.
 
 And then there’s this:
 
2) Rogers was worried about not sounding as good as digital signals that are available both over the air and online, which attract the same demo KISS-FM is going after, but may be outside the governing body's purview.
 
The CRTC’s response to that one is very interesting.  
 
 “With respect to competition from exempt digital media services, the Commission is of the view that this is an issue that impacts all traditional radio stations. Consequently, the Commission considers that the issue of competition with exempt digital media services falls outside the scope of this application and must be addressed as part of a broader public proceeding that would take into account the radio industry as a whole.”
 
So does that mean that the CRTC will eventually be forced to deal with this growing issue? Stay tuned. But apparently not to KISS-FM if you’re in Oakville or Markham or it's a warm summer day,
 
For such a technical issue, this is a really fascinating decision. You can read the entire thing here.

 

May 15, 2020 5:24 pm  #2


Re: Rogers Loses Signal Improvement Bid For KISS-FM At CRTC

Years ago, when I lived in Oakville, and had access to an outdoor Wineguard FM antenna, I would use 92.5 as a guide for Rochester reception. This goes back pre-country when they had the WMJQ calls. It was always the first of the Rochester FM stations available and if the signal was registering a 3 out of 5, I knew I had a shot at WPXY  and tiny signalled WDKX. Today, I can't remember the last time I heard WBEE. I know that CKIS has a sizeable null in their signal pattern to the east of Toronto. I would think that signal interference wouldn't be an issue until one was slightly east of Oshawa. I rarely travel east so I am really just guessing about that.

 

May 15, 2020 7:13 pm  #3


Re: Rogers Loses Signal Improvement Bid For KISS-FM At CRTC

CISS can get its butt kicked in areas of the Scarborough Bluffs if Rochester signals are decently enhanced

 

May 15, 2020 7:37 pm  #4


Re: Rogers Loses Signal Improvement Bid For KISS-FM At CRTC

I have never actually been to the Scarborough Bluffs, but I have heard it is a great location to DX.

 

May 16, 2020 10:47 pm  #5


Re: Rogers Loses Signal Improvement Bid For KISS-FM At CRTC

I've had good tropo ducting there ... FM signals heard from Maine, Massachusetts, Virginia, DC, Delaware, New Jersey, and such. Before the Toronto band got so crowded, it was pretty easy pickings there. Haven't been out in about a decade aside from quick checks here and there. When I do go out these days - and as I get older I'm much less inclined - it's to the Dufferin/Aurora Road area (close to the 88.5 site but far enough away from it so I don't get interference).

 

May 16, 2020 11:07 pm  #6


Re: Rogers Loses Signal Improvement Bid For KISS-FM At CRTC

I've been into DX-ing all of my life but haven't really done much since both bands got so noisy in the city. But there was one magical day a very long time ago that I will never forget - and that's never happened again. 

It was a summer-like steamy afternoon. I had just gotten home from high school and turned on the radio, when I noticed half the FM stations weren't there. They'd all been replaced by out of town signals. And by out of town, I mean WAY out of town. Stations from Pennsylvania and Ohio weren't that unusual, but FMs from Alabama, Louisiana and Florida were - and they were coming in like locals for a bit. It was amazing and it actually lasted for several hours. One station would fade out only to be replaced almost immediately by another, up and down the dial, which was much less crowded then.

At the same time, I rushed into the room where the TV and the rotor were and gave that a spin. And that proved an outstanding bonanza, too. The typical analog suspects on Channels 2, 3 & 4 were going insane, with locations like Florida, Texas and even Denver all briefly making an appearance.

It was a DX-ers dream and I can honestly say, to this day, I've never seen or heard of an afternoon quite like it. It hasn't happened since and with the way things are now - especially with digital TV signals - I suspect it never will.




     Thread Starter
 

May 17, 2020 7:14 am  #7


Re: Rogers Loses Signal Improvement Bid For KISS-FM At CRTC

RA- I noticed your reception dates were all from June 1977. I was living in West Hamilton near McMaster then and was experiencing similar conditions on my 12" Zenith Black & White set. I didn't get Denver but I did receive KTVS ch 3 [now KCDO] in Sterling. Co. KNOP ch 2 North Platte, Neb, KSNC ch 2 Great Bend, Ks and KUSD ch 2 Vermillion, SD. I learned a lot about American geography that summer.

 

May 17, 2020 1:06 pm  #8


Re: Rogers Loses Signal Improvement Bid For KISS-FM At CRTC

The documents say it was June 14, 1977, a Tuesday. It was simply an amazing afternoon and as noted, there's never quite been a day like that one. With the crowded dial and digital TV now in place, I can't see how there ever will be. You're lucky if you got in on it. I only wish I'd had a digital radio dial in those days. It would have made things a lot easier!

     Thread Starter
 

May 17, 2020 4:06 pm  #9


Re: Rogers Loses Signal Improvement Bid For KISS-FM At CRTC

My first ever E-skip event was in June or July 1977. Never marked down the date, not having a clue that day what was happening. Back in Toronto a few days later I went to the library, found a radio station directory (Vane Jones), and from my scribbled notes determined I had 90.7 KOBC Joplin MO, 91.1 KSJN St. Paul MN and 104.1 KOBC Oklahoma City. I haven't digitized my TV logbook pre-1986 and the paper copy is elsewhere, so no immediate idea when I first had TV skip. But I know the 1977 FM catches came first, because I had no sense of what was happening.

 

 

May 17, 2020 4:38 pm  #10


Re: Rogers Loses Signal Improvement Bid For KISS-FM At CRTC

Saul wrote:

My first ever E-skip event was in June or July 1977. Never marked down the date, not having a clue that day what was happening. Back in Toronto a few days later I went to the library, found a radio station directory (Vane Jones), and from my scribbled notes determined I had 90.7 KOBC Joplin MO, 91.1 KSJN St. Paul MN and 104.1 KOBC Oklahoma City. I haven't digitized my TV logbook pre-1986 and the paper copy is elsewhere, so no immediate idea when I first had TV skip. But I know the 1977 FM catches came first, because I had no sense of what was happening.

Ah yes, Vane Jones. I owned a few of his books over the years. Before the Internet, they were worth their weight in gold to a DX-er. I actually spoke to him once and I've never met anyone so totally obsessed with radio. Not sure which edition of his directory you had? Check this out. 

     Thread Starter
 

May 18, 2020 9:50 am  #11


Re: Rogers Loses Signal Improvement Bid For KISS-FM At CRTC

I owned a few of the Vane Jones books. I believe the last edition before his death was in 1985. Does anyone remember the White's Radio Log? I remember stumbling across that in an edition of Communication's World in the mid 1970's. Once I had an automobile and could do some travelling outside the GTA, I found Dr. Bruce Elving's FM Atlas an invaluable companion. Station listings by state/province or by frequency plus format, signal strength and tower height. All in one little book! Sadly, Dr. Elving passed away in 2011 so the hopelessly, out of date, 2010 edition is was the final one. One final TV DX encyclopedia I found at McMaster's Mills library. This behemoth was the technical television version of a butcher's manual. The two set beast had a cable systems volume and a station's volume. To give you an idea how large these books were, each tv station in North America had one page indicating history, ownership changes, ad rates, technical coordinates for the transmitter site, audio/video power and what I found most interesting, the grade A and B signal contours. Back in the 1980's, I inquired about purchasing the stations volume. I was informed that buying the set was my only option. The $500 U.S. price tag put an end to that. Sorry I cannot remember the title. Later editions cut back significantly the information on Canadian stations.

 

May 18, 2020 10:21 am  #12


Re: Rogers Loses Signal Improvement Bid For KISS-FM At CRTC

Knew of White's. Have just about every FM Atlas from late 1970s onwards. Met Bruce a few times.

We mostly go by nicknames here ...Do I know any of you DXers from, say, WTFDA or ODXA?

 

 

May 18, 2020 10:41 am  #13


Re: Rogers Loses Signal Improvement Bid For KISS-FM At CRTC

Saul wrote:

Knew of White's. Have just about every FM Atlas from late 1970s onwards. Met Bruce a few times.

We mostly go by nicknames here ...Do I know any of you DXers from, say, WTFDA or ODXA?

 

I was a member of ODXA  for many years. I would often attend their monthly meetings held at a library near Don Mills and Lawrence, if my memory serves me correctly. That is where I would stock up on the various DX books mentioned above plus the New Jersey based National Radio Club's annual AM Log. I became close friends with a chap named Morris Saurenson [sp] who either edited the Medium Wave column or was a heavy contributor to it.

 

May 18, 2020 11:21 am  #14


Re: Rogers Loses Signal Improvement Bid For KISS-FM At CRTC

I believe Morris Sorenson / Sorensen (these are likely spellings as I recall) passed away a number of years ago. I also knew him. I also went to quite a few meetings and even gave a couple presentations. Trying to recall the topics ... could have been TV-FM DX, mobile DXing, pirate radio... I also joined NRC a couple of times on and off (still belong to NRC and WTFDA).

 

May 18, 2020 11:44 am  #15


Re: Rogers Loses Signal Improvement Bid For KISS-FM At CRTC

I was aware that Morris had passed. I went to visit him after he had moved to Port Carling. One of the best FM/TV DX weekends ever! The Friday night was all tropo. Mostly Syracuse, Rochester and Albany. I will never forget seeing WTVH ch 5 in cable clarity. The Saturday was all E-skip mostly from Texas and Louisiana and no Buffalo stations to null.

 

May 18, 2020 1:11 pm  #16


Re: Rogers Loses Signal Improvement Bid For KISS-FM At CRTC

I grew up in Guildwood at the eastern end on the Scarborough bluffs and it was great for radio and TV with an outdoor antenna. Rochester was  almost regular catch and Syracuse and Erie PA were occasional. I remember just a few skip events and one in particular where the radio dial was lit up with Florida stations. 

Around 2016 in the car on the 401 I was getting a Wyoming oldies station and that's the last skip I received.

One thing I noticed a few days ago is that WBFO at 88.7 has added an HD signal at the frequency. I think it's still HD2 on WNED but I was not able to get an HD lock on either frequency to see what's actually on air but I am sure I will be able to do that during the summer and I am wondering if adding the HD signal at 88.7 may improve the non HD signal. 


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