The Southern Ontario/WNY Radio-TV Forum » Did New Owner Of CKOC, CHAM & CKWW Hint He'll Restore Old Formats?

RadioActive · December 13, 2023 8:12 am

Does an article in Broadcast Dialogue have the presumed soon-to-be new owner of CKOC and CHAM in Hamilton and CKWW in Windsor hinting he might just restore their oldies and country formats?

The story centres on Neeti Ray's belief that AM radio is still viable and that big broadcasters like Bell and Rogers just don't see the value in the frequencies any more. But he does.

But what caught my eye was this comment:

"AM can still broadcast Classic Country or Oldies, it can still carry news...820 was previously doing fairly well when it was Country quite a few years ago. Truck drivers could hear it from Belleville all the way to Woodstock…1150 was Oldies and it was doing well until things began to become neglected. It does not have to make millions of dollars, if it makes just enough to keep them going, I’ll be happy. It’s worth giving it a shot.”

So does that sound like he might be actually considering putting them back to what they were, or in the case of CKWW, leaving it alone? We'll know more when the hearing to officially OK the sale goes before the CRTC on Feb. 8. But what an intriguing statement.

AM dump by broadcasters ‘tantamount to euthanasia,’ says CINA Radio Group founder

mace · December 13, 2023 8:59 am

I like his enthusiasm and optimism. The bean counters ran the stations in question when they owned and operated by Bell. It sounds like this guy is willing to invest the time and money to turn things around in at least a break even situation. I am sure CKOC could do at least as well as Classic 1220. They certainly have a far superior night signal.

mic'em · December 13, 2023 9:18 am

I suggested a classic country format for 820 when the original post of the stations purchased was made. Although todays truck drivers for the most part likely listen to their own culture , like he said, it just has to do well enough to keep it on air.

Paul Jeffries · December 13, 2023 9:38 am

I hope he can make something of a go of it. It would be great to hear these classic stations back on the air again the way most people fondly remember them.

He must have fairly deep pockets though if he's satisfied enough with just simply breaking even.

PJ

RadioAaron · December 13, 2023 10:42 am

mace wrote:
I am sure CKOC could do at least as well as Classic 1220.

LOL.

This guy is completely out to lunch. He's not even living in this century.

Even if you juiced the 12+ numbers, the money spent to get there in the first place does not exist in the market to be made back.

As for CHAM, you're not going to get anywhere CLOSE to their peak numbers, which tanked when KX signed on.

Radiowiz · December 13, 2023 10:50 am

It costs a lot of money to run a radio station and nothing to turn on the radio.
Hopefully the cost of running the two AM stations in Hamilton will not be too high.

Saul · December 13, 2023 11:22 am

RadioAaron wrote:
mace wrote:
I am sure CKOC could do at least as well as Classic 1220.
LOL. This guy is completely out to lunch. He's not even living in this century. Even if you juiced the 12+ numbers, the money spent to get there in the first place does not exist in the market to be made back. As for CHAM, you're not going to get anywhere CLOSE to their peak numbers, which tanked when KX signed on.

If Neeti Ray is serious about this, I'd gladly have lunch with him. Two AM channels is a lot in Hamilton. Do something with one of them that is truly and utterly and obsessively Hamilton. Make it appealing and fun to listen to. Do much the same with Windsor, embedding serious Windsor attitude as done with Hamilton, and most likely keeping to the same music format. With the second Hamilton station, pick the one with the widest decent coverage (probably 820) and make it traffic (and weather) for the GTHA. Or possibly a really good talk station where people can phone in. The trick is to make the content compelling.

RadioAaron · December 13, 2023 11:32 am

Saul wrote:
Or possibly a really good talk station where people can phone in. The trick is to make the content compelling.

This all costs money that isn't there to be made back. It really is that simple.

paterson1 · December 13, 2023 11:58 am

Saul wrote:
RadioAaron wrote:
mace wrote:
I am sure CKOC could do at least as well as Classic 1220.
LOL. This guy is completely out to lunch. He's not even living in this century. Even if you juiced the 12+ numbers, the money spent to get there in the first place does not exist in the market to be made back. As for CHAM, you're not going to get anywhere CLOSE to their peak numbers, which tanked when KX signed on.
If Neeti Ray is serious about this, I'd gladly have lunch with him. Two AM channels is a lot in Hamilton. Do something with one of them that is truly and utterly and obsessively Hamilton. Make it appealing and fun to listen to. Do much the same with Windsor, embedding serious Windsor attitude as done with Hamilton, and most likely keeping to the same music format. With the second Hamilton station, pick the one with the widest decent coverage (probably 820) and make it traffic (and weather) for the GTHA. Or possibly a really good talk station where people can phone in. The trick is to make the content compelling.

Neeti may very well leave CKWW alone initially since they are the only station that consistently plays old Motown and soul hits according to Detroit Radio Discussions and the Buzzboard sites. Hard to believe that is true.

The station likely has more listeners in Michigan than Ontario but not enough to make much money off of any US listenership. Any ads will be local.

This is a tough one to call since Windsor/Essex isn't really very diverse in terms of language and Neeti already has CINA FM that largely caters to the Arabic population in the Detroit area. I guess he could use CKWW to augment or increase programming to this and other ethnic communities. Apparently almost all of the advertising on CINA FM is from the US, so he could use CKWW to expand this with added programming.

RadioAaron · December 13, 2023 12:04 pm

paterson1 wrote:
The station likely has more listeners in Michigan than Ontario but not enough to make much money off of any US listenership. Any ads will be local.

And free.

AM800 11.3
Windsor's Country 5.9
COOL 5.3
Virgin 4.2
Pure Country 3.9
Mix96 3.8
AM580 0.3

Radiowiz · December 13, 2023 2:27 pm

RadioAaron wrote:
This all costs money that isn't there to be made back. It really is that simple.

My only real concern is that maybe the true cost of maintaining the towers for both stations is a lot higher than I think.
Outside of that, there is plenty of room for both AM stations in Hamilton to give music formats a fresh new run at it...

RadioAaron · December 13, 2023 3:26 pm

Radiowiz wrote:
RadioAaron wrote:
This all costs money that isn't there to be made back. It really is that simple.

My only real concern is that maybe the true cost of maintaining the towers for both stations is a lot higher than I think.
Outside of that, there is plenty of room for both AM stations in Hamilton to give music formats a fresh new run at it...

There's room for the formats from a listener choice perspective, but there aren't the ad dollars for niche formats whose audiences fall well outside the demographics of the majority of marketing spends.

Radiowiz · December 13, 2023 3:52 pm

RadioAaron wrote:
Radiowiz wrote:
RadioAaron wrote:
This all costs money that isn't there to be made back. It really is that simple.

My only real concern is that maybe the true cost of maintaining the towers for both stations is a lot higher than I think.
Outside of that, there is plenty of room for both AM stations in Hamilton to give music formats a fresh new run at it...
There's room for the formats from a listener choice perspective, but there aren't the ad dollars for niche formats whose audiences fall well outside the demographics of the majority of marketing spends.

I don't see it that way at all.
Investments wouldn't be made at all if there's just no money to be made...unless the idea is to be a deliberate tax write off.

Saul · December 13, 2023 4:08 pm

Certainly the tax game may be part of the financial plan.
There is the risk of losing the sites ... and presumably payments to rent them ... or a game plan to change parameters or relocate so that the transmitter set-ups are much more simple.
This isn't an easy prospect. But I still think the best options is to be very very very local and engaging to listen to.
There's plenty of markets in the US smaller than Hamilton with many more commercial (non-religious) AM stations. It does help that many are repeated on FM with low power translators. Maybe something in the 150-250 watt range would be feasible in Hamilton; and I'm not sure where the CRTC would stand on that these days.

Radiowiz · December 13, 2023 4:26 pm

Saul wrote:
and I'm not sure where the CRTC would stand on that these days.

The CRTC used to bend over backwards to protect AM radio come hell or high water.
(ie the 49% non hit rule for FM back in the day)
Those days seem to be over.
It would be smart to allow AM radio to play as little Can Con as possible (if at all) but that change most likely won't happen any time soon either.

RadioAaron · December 13, 2023 5:22 pm

Radiowiz wrote:
RadioAaron wrote:
Radiowiz wrote:
My only real concern is that maybe the true cost of maintaining the towers for both stations is a lot higher than I think.
Outside of that, there is plenty of room for both AM stations in Hamilton to give music formats a fresh new run at it...
There's room for the formats from a listener choice perspective, but there aren't the ad dollars for niche formats whose audiences fall well outside the demographics of the majority of marketing spends.
I don't see it that way at all.
Investments wouldn't be made at all if there's just no money to be made...unless the idea is to be a deliberate tax write off.

Or, he can be wrong. And if what he's hinting at is what he's going to do...he is. His quotes show that he's not operating realistically within the current climate.

Last edited by RadioAaron (December 13, 2023 5:22 pm)

paterson1 · December 13, 2023 5:31 pm

Cancon is not AM radio's real issue. Playing 0% would likely have no effect on ratings. TSN 1050, Newstalk 1010, AM 640, Bloomberg 1150, CJOY 1460, CKWW 580 and Zoomer 740 all have the same problem. They are on the AM band that few people listen to anymore. Even the 55+ listener is not tuning in nearly as much.

Only City News 680 has decent numbers and provide an excellent service to commuters in the car. Could be that 680 has sucked up 95% of the potential AM listeners and everyone else divides the rest.

RadioAaron · December 13, 2023 5:38 pm

paterson1 wrote:
Cancon is not AM radio's real issue. Playing 0% would likely have no effect on ratings. TSN 1050, Newstalk 1010, AM 640, Bloomberg 1150, CJOY 1460, CKWW 580 and Zoomer 740 all have the same problem. They are on the AM band that few people listen to anymore. Even the 55+ listener is not tuning in nearly as much.

Only City News 680 has decent numbers and provide an excellent service to commuters in the car. Could be that 680 has sucked up 95% of the potential AM listeners and everyone else divides the rest.

Correct. And you cannot create a new 680News.

RadioAaron · December 13, 2023 6:00 pm

In other news, Mr. Ray released whatever was left of FLOW 98.7's airstaff this week, which is a sure sign that everything's going great.

Radiowiz · December 13, 2023 6:43 pm

RadioAaron wrote:
In other news, Mr. Ray released whatever was left of FLOW 98.7's airstaff this week, which is a sure sign that everything's going great.

Very strange. "Personality coming soon" https://flow987.com/personalities/geena-lee/

DOPEfm · December 13, 2023 8:29 pm

Radiowiz wrote:
RadioAaron wrote:
In other news, Mr. Ray released whatever was left of FLOW 98.7's airstaff this week, which is a sure sign that everything's going great.
Very strange. "Personality coming soon" https://flow987.com/personalities/geena-lee/

VX3 Exchange is now helping operate the station.

The same group operates Vibe 105.5 York University.

Perhaps staff will 'flow' from 105.5 to 98.7?

Adrian106072 · December 13, 2023 8:30 pm

RadioAaron wrote:
In other news, Mr. Ray released whatever was left of FLOW 98.7's airstaff this week, which is a sure sign that everything's going great.

About a month ago, Flow appointed Randy Reid and Mastermind, the same people working in Vibe 105 as operations manager and program director respectively, as reported in Broadcast Dialogue. Guess they're moving Flow into a more contemporary hip hop and R&B direction by revamping the playlist, and not sure if they are going to keep the same airstaff after recent stunting.

Adrian106072 · December 13, 2023 8:33 pm

DOPEfm wrote:
Radiowiz wrote:
RadioAaron wrote:
In other news, Mr. Ray released whatever was left of FLOW 98.7's airstaff this week, which is a sure sign that everything's going great.
Very strange. "Personality coming soon" https://flow987.com/personalities/geena-lee/
VX3 Exchange is now helping operate the station.

The same group operates Vibe 105.5 York University.

Perhaps staff will 'flow' from 105.5 to 98.7?

It's possible that some of the staff from Vibe might move over to Flow under the same management. But the two urban stations are currently playing so many overlapping songs as Flow is in stunting mode, and I cannot see it last for long.

Last edited by Adrian106072 (December 13, 2023 8:36 pm)

darcyh · December 14, 2023 12:26 pm

I am wondering what the remaining life is for the CKOC and CHAM transmitter facilities. With their directional signal and 50 kilowatt RF output these sites need to be maintained. Not too long ago I believe CKOC 1150 khz was given permission to drop night power from 50 KW to 20 KW so it could stay on its day pattern. This would reduce maintenance costs associated with operating on the night time directional pattern. Things like high power switches, feed lines, etc. and save them some electricity too. Just makes me wonder...