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August 3, 2023 6:50 pm  #181


Re: Bell Cuts 1,300, Closes 6 Stns., Including CJBK, Selling CKOC & CHAM

80 million is a one time expense.  They will consider that a write off...  It's a sad state of the business.   

 

August 4, 2023 7:46 am  #182


Re: Bell Cuts 1,300, Closes 6 Stns., Including CJBK, Selling CKOC & CHAM

Marc1178 wrote:

Another possible buyer is Evanov Communications.

Now that Arise radio has been shut down, I highly doubt it. 


CityNews 24/7: https://toronto.citynews.ca/video/
RadioWiz & RadioQuiz are NOT the same person. 
RadioWiz & THE Wiz are NOT the same person.

 
 

August 4, 2023 3:57 pm  #183


Re: Bell Cuts 1,300, Closes 6 Stns., Including CJBK, Selling CKOC & CHAM

On the heels of Thursday's Q2 earnings report from BCE,  The Canadian Press had the following headline and story...  (Bloomberg ran with the CP story)

Bell says more cost restructuring possible as Q2 net earnings fall almost 40%

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/bell-saw-q2-net-earnings-fall-40-as-it-began-layoff-of-1-300-workers-1.1954441
 

Last edited by Glen Warren (August 4, 2023 3:58 pm)

 

August 4, 2023 4:50 pm  #184


Re: Bell Cuts 1,300, Closes 6 Stns., Including CJBK, Selling CKOC & CHAM

So what was the plan, all those years ago?

The conglomerates decided to acquire any and all radio and TV stations they could. They boasted of synergy, rationalisation and savings; all to "better serve the public".

However, what they failed to ask the public was, "Do you want to lose your local news, sports and weather?"

Now that the big guys have determined that more money can be made by ignoring local...guess what's going. You got it in one: local.

Legislation should have been enacted, decades ago, that owners (and subsequent owners) must maintain a local news, sports and weather capability...IN HOUSE.

Don't like that requirement? Then don't buy the local station (that you wish to destroy to increase your corporate bottom line).

 

August 4, 2023 5:27 pm  #185


Re: Bell Cuts 1,300, Closes 6 Stns., Including CJBK, Selling CKOC & CHAM

This all started over 20 years ago with Corus hoovering up a lot of Mom and Pop operations at 10x EBITDA. Everybody wanted on the bandwagon, so we had a feeding frenzy until only a handful of small operators was left. One thing I learned many years ago when working for a big broadcaster is that the little guys really knew how to squeeze out good profits while providing very good local service.  TV stations that had 18 to 20 hours a week of local programming.  An hour morning talk show,  an hour of noon news, a half hour of evening news, a half hour of late night news. Multiply by 5 days, add weekends and a couple of gardening/cooking/farming/tiny talent shows, and there you have it. The hubris that "we are big guys, we can run things better, synergies, etc.etc"  was more than offset by high corporate overheads. Bundled national selling was a hard sell. Local radio stations had live DJs (except maybe on weekends) and a real newsroom with real reporters.
Bottom line - they overpaid dearly for the acquisitions, took massive impairment write-downs, and drove the revenue into the ground.  Yes, new technology has had a far greater impact than anyone imagined, but it helps if you actually know the business and take steps to adapt.
 

 

August 4, 2023 6:47 pm  #186


Re: Bell Cuts 1,300, Closes 6 Stns., Including CJBK, Selling CKOC & CHAM

Dial Twister wrote:

So what was the plan, all those years ago?

The conglomerates decided to acquire any and all radio and TV stations they could. They boasted of synergy, rationalisation and savings; all to "better serve the public".

In this case, "the public" = these companies' faceless, greedy, heartless, soulless, spineless, brainless, snooty, good-for-NOTHING shareholders. Absolute bloody scum of the earth. A malignant cancer of society. There is nobody lower in society than these scumbags. The world would be a hell of a lot better without these jackasses who are NEVER satisfied and are ALWAYS short-sighted and NEVER look at the big picture.

 

August 4, 2023 7:30 pm  #187


Re: Bell Cuts 1,300, Closes 6 Stns., Including CJBK, Selling CKOC & CHAM

Skywave wrote:

The hubris that "we are big guys, we can run things better, synergies, etc.etc"  was more than offset by high corporate overheads. Bundled national selling was a hard sell. Local radio stations had live DJs (except maybe on weekends) and a real newsroom with real reporters.

Bottom line - they overpaid dearly for the acquisitions, took massive impairment write-downs, and drove the revenue into the ground.  Yes, new technology has had a far greater impact than anyone imagined, but it helps if you actually know the business and take steps to adapt.

This goes back to my argument in a previous thread about true competition and how it made all radio boats rise with the tide. When you only had one or two stations to look after, you poured all your resources into just those. The competition down the street did the same. The result: everyone got better and the listeners had great choice. 

Whether they like it or not, radio is not like a Wal-Mart, where you can just sell everything and sit back and watch the money flow. It requires creativity, care, planning and talent. Some of that is still around, but there's too little of it these days. Consider iHeart's "NewsTalk Tonight," the Jim Richards-hosted show that airs on Bell talk stations across the country. 

Yes, it's a great way to save money - one show covers dozens of stations, so it costs less for those bodies you don't have to hire. But the show is totally GTA-centric and if I'm in Winnipeg, I really don't care about a 20 minute conversation regarding drinking being allowed in Toronto's parks. That's what happens when a faceless corporation like Bell, with no experience in the medium, takes over. 

The dominoes - and the tuneout - will continue to fall as long as those in charge worry only about a never-ending profit chase and keep turning the medium into tedium. 

 

August 7, 2023 9:59 am  #188


Re: Bell Cuts 1,300, Closes 6 Stns., Including CJBK, Selling CKOC & CHAM

Regarding BCE's second quarter results last week.  It is again worth noting, nowhere in the long financial report released to the public was there any mention of radio.

Previous financial updates included at least a paragraph on radio in the Bell Media portion.  This time there didn't appear to be any reference to the companies significant radio operations.  Bell owns over 100 stations in 58 markets across the country.

Digital, TSN, CTV, Noovo (Bell's french OTA network), Crave etc. were mentioned or information updated on how these platforms performed. 

The company did just quietly sell their majority stake in the Pinewood Studio complex in Toronto.  Bell had recently completed a large expansion of studios and facilities and then turned around and sold their controlling stake in the lakefront property. 

I wonder if the company is going to start selling off some of their radio properties?  This in addition to the three AM operations that are currently on the market or possibly already sold.  

 

August 7, 2023 10:04 am  #189


Re: Bell Cuts 1,300, Closes 6 Stns., Including CJBK, Selling CKOC & CHAM

I hope they do sell them off and to people who know what they're doing and care about the product. Clearly Bell, which had zero background in broadcasting, had only one interest - the money they could wring out of them. When that didn't happen, they lost interest. 

Profit is important. So is quality. Somewhere out there is an owner-in-waiting who may understand radio isn't like running a Home Depot. It's a different animal and needs to be treated like one. I hope you're right p1. I just worry that whoever has the bucks to make such purchases won't be any different from what we've got now. 

 

August 7, 2023 10:36 am  #190


Re: Bell Cuts 1,300, Closes 6 Stns., Including CJBK, Selling CKOC & CHAM

If they do start shifting out of radio, I hope it is done in chunks or geographically. This would make it easier to sell smaller groups of stations and in the long run Bell would make more money from the sale. 

Pattison Media would be a prime company to buy up stations in Eastern Canada where currently they own none.  Pattison is a broadcast company with interesting and varied formats with a successful track record in radio in Western Canada, both for revenue and ratings.

Also selling stations off geographically would give medium and smaller broadcast companies who are usually profitable a chance to plant their flag in some larger markets.

But Bell may need to be prepared to take a haircut on some stations if they do want to exit radio.  To their credit they did update stations with new equipment and studios over the years. With the exception of whatever AM operations they still have, most stations technically are in reasonable shape from what I have been told.  

 

August 7, 2023 10:53 am  #191


Re: Bell Cuts 1,300, Closes 6 Stns., Including CJBK, Selling CKOC & CHAM

paterson1 wrote:

I Pattison is a broadcast company with interesting and varied formats with a successful track record in radio in Western Canada, both for revenue and ratings.
 

Pattison doesn't operate any formats that the other guys don't. They VT smaller markets from bigger ones just like everyone else.

Be careful what you wish for with hoping for a sell-off.

New owners can't control the state of the advertising market or the increasing costs of staying on the air.

 

August 7, 2023 11:22 am  #192


Re: Bell Cuts 1,300, Closes 6 Stns., Including CJBK, Selling CKOC & CHAM

I know most here won't agree with me, but if you can offer programming that's different or compelling enough, AM or FM won't matter in the end. But the cookie cutter stuff we have now prevents it from ever coming true. 

If you could get someone to confess he was in on the assassination of John F. Kennedy on the grassy knoll in 1963 and he had the evidence to prove it, I wouid listen - no matter what band it was on. Far fetched, yes, but the point is I continue to believe if you build it, they will come. 

Leave things as they are, and they won't. 

 

August 7, 2023 11:26 am  #193


Re: Bell Cuts 1,300, Closes 6 Stns., Including CJBK, Selling CKOC & CHAM

My dilemma is I like to listen to CHAM Funny 820 late night.  With CHAM's pending sale, I've been looking for alternate stand-up comedy stations.  I'm having difficulty finding stations that don't devolve into a steady stream of F-Bombs & vulgarity.  That gets real old, real quick .. it's lazy comedy.  I guess over-the-air rules keeps Funny 820 from being a swearing cesspool.

Does anyone have good options for other stand-up comedy channels that aren't profanity-fests? 

 

August 7, 2023 11:36 am  #194


Re: Bell Cuts 1,300, Closes 6 Stns., Including CJBK, Selling CKOC & CHAM

RadioActive wrote:

I know most here won't agree with me, but if you can offer programming that's different or compelling enough, AM or FM won't matter in the end. But the cookie cutter stuff we have now prevents it from ever coming true. 

If you could get someone to confess he was in on the assassination of John F. Kennedy on the grassy knoll in 1963 and he had the evidence to prove it, I wouid listen - no matter what band it was on. Far fetched, yes, but the point is I continue to believe if you build it, they will come. 

Leave things as they are, and they won't. 

Listening levels aren't even the current central challenge for the medium; it's the fragmented advertising industry. Even if listening were at 1980s levels, revenues would be down significantly.

If radio is going to overcome this, I agree things need to change, but you're not going to like the direction. Australia offers a model that works: you need fewer brands, with a base of strong national programming and promotion with room for good local content. Quebec has been doing this for decades. 

Scaling down only increases your cost per station without significant improvement in revenue.
 

 

August 7, 2023 12:35 pm  #195


Re: Bell Cuts 1,300, Closes 6 Stns., Including CJBK, Selling CKOC & CHAM

What AM radio needs are individuals like the late "Ramblin" Lou Schriver who bought WXRL back in 1972 from Stan Jasinski, who founded WUTV channel 29.

This was back in the day when individuals owned radio stations to serve a niche market.  Budgets were tight but as long as they could keep the lights on, they were happy.

And WXRL is still run by the Schriver family.  They have added a 250 watt FM repeater and put the signal on-line (the last station in the Buffalo area to do so) but they're still kicking.

It harkens back to the day when individuals owned radio (and even TV) stations as their own sandboxes where they could play what they wanted, and as long as there was enough money left over at the end of the day, all was good and they were happy.

...But then again, I still haven't won the Lotto Max. 
 

Last edited by Peter the K (August 7, 2023 12:36 pm)

 

August 7, 2023 12:47 pm  #196


Re: Bell Cuts 1,300, Closes 6 Stns., Including CJBK, Selling CKOC & CHAM

RadioAaron wrote:

If radio is going to overcome this, I agree things need to change, but you're not going to like the direction. Australia offers a model that works: you need fewer brands, with a base of strong national programming and promotion with room for good local content. Quebec has been doing this for decades. 

Scaling down only increases your cost per station without significant improvement in revenue.
 

I'm not sure what you're specifically saying that's not to like?  Are you proposing an idea that involves networking and stronger spending on national content?  I know that was tried and failed with sports, but what did your idea involve?  Are you saying that your idea would involve less local content, but more money would be paid towards the national talent?
 


Cheers,
Jody Thornton
 
 

August 7, 2023 12:55 pm  #197


Re: Bell Cuts 1,300, Closes 6 Stns., Including CJBK, Selling CKOC & CHAM

RadioAaron wrote:

paterson1 wrote:

I Pattison is a broadcast company with interesting and varied formats with a successful track record in radio in Western Canada, both for revenue and ratings.
 

Pattison doesn't operate any formats that the other guys don't. They VT smaller markets from bigger ones just like everyone else.

Be careful what you wish for with hoping for a sell-off.

New owners can't control the state of the advertising market or the increasing costs of staying on the air.

I agree that in most ways, Pattison and a few others are traditional broadcasters.  Pattison has been successful and did pioneer the conversation/music format that Today Radio in Toronto is attempting.  Pattison has made this format popular out west and Today is still trying to find their place here in Toronto. 

As we know, Pattison runs a very successful country FM, where this type of format shouldn't be so popular.  Vancouver's JR FM does quite well in a market that is very diversified, multicultural and competitive.  And listening to some of their Rock FM stations, maybe it is just because I don't hear them much, but they are a nice change from Q 107 and seem to play songs that Q doesn't play.  Finally any on air talent I have heard is well trained and good on air.

You are correct that like all broadcasters, Pattison and others are first and foremost  businesses and they are not afraid to streamline, cut costs, and lay off staff if conditions warrant or they go into the red.  So we need to be careful thinking that "real broadcasters" will suddenly staff the newsroom at CFRB again, or bring back live late evening programming.

Hopefully though they will be more attentive to detail and not let poorly produced over modulated voice tracking go to air the same way that Bell stations do, especially in smaller markets.  And the way that Bell has programmed some AM stations over the years has been shameful.  Bloomberg Radio in Hamilton has been poorly executed since day one in February 2021.  The station on air still has too many technical glitches.  At least it seems that way whenever I have tuned them in.  The bare minimum of effort and it shows.   

 

August 7, 2023 1:15 pm  #198


Re: Bell Cuts 1,300, Closes 6 Stns., Including CJBK, Selling CKOC & CHAM

Jody Thornton wrote:

RadioAaron wrote:

If radio is going to overcome this, I agree things need to change, but you're not going to like the direction. Australia offers a model that works: you need fewer brands, with a base of strong national programming and promotion with room for good local content. Quebec has been doing this for decades. 

Scaling down only increases your cost per station without significant improvement in revenue.
 

I'm not sure what you're specifically saying that's not to like?  Are you proposing an idea that involves networking and stronger spending on national content?  I know that was tried and failed with sports, but what did your idea involve?  Are you saying that your idea would involve less local content, but more money would be paid towards the national talent?
 

Yes, investment in talent is the only way to extend radio's life. That means big salaries and big marketing. The revenue required to do this simply isn't available on the local level.

 

August 7, 2023 1:19 pm  #199


Re: Bell Cuts 1,300, Closes 6 Stns., Including CJBK, Selling CKOC & CHAM

RadioAaron wrote:

Jody Thornton wrote:

RadioAaron wrote:

If radio is going to overcome this, I agree things need to change, but you're not going to like the direction. Australia offers a model that works: you need fewer brands, with a base of strong national programming and promotion with room for good local content. Quebec has been doing this for decades. 

Scaling down only increases your cost per station without significant improvement in revenue.
 

I'm not sure what you're specifically saying that's not to like?  Are you proposing an idea that involves networking and stronger spending on national content?  I know that was tried and failed with sports, but what did your idea involve?  Are you saying that your idea would involve less local content, but more money would be paid towards the national talent?
 

Yes, investment in talent is the only way to extend radio's life. That means big salaries and big marketing. The revenue required to do this simply isn't available on the local level.

Maybe not, but the success of Buddy Shula in Buffalo with WECK-AM (and now on FM as well) gives me hope that anything is still possible if the people in charge simply care enough.  

 

August 7, 2023 1:19 pm  #200


Re: Bell Cuts 1,300, Closes 6 Stns., Including CJBK, Selling CKOC & CHAM

paterson1 wrote:

Pattison has been successful and did pioneer the conversation/music format that Today Radio in Toronto is attempting.  Pattison has made this format popular out west and Today is still trying to find their place here in Toronto.  

Pattison didn't make that a success; Rawlco did. Pattison just bought it, and their attempts to duplicate it have led to them landing in last place in Vancouver and Winnipeg.

Pattison doesn't create; they buy. They had $14billion in revenue last year - slightly less than Bell (all of Bell) and three times that of Rogers. The are not the white knight you're looking for.

Last edited by RadioAaron (August 7, 2023 1:19 pm)

 

August 7, 2023 2:01 pm  #201


Re: Bell Cuts 1,300, Closes 6 Stns., Including CJBK, Selling CKOC & CHAM

RadioAaron wrote:

paterson1 wrote:

Pattison has been successful and did pioneer the conversation/music format that Today Radio in Toronto is attempting.  Pattison has made this format popular out west and Today is still trying to find their place here in Toronto.  

Pattison didn't make that a success; Rawlco did. Pattison just bought it, and their attempts to duplicate it have led to them landing in last place in Vancouver and Winnipeg.

Pattison doesn't create; they buy. They had $14billion in revenue last year - slightly less than Bell (all of Bell) and three times that of Rogers. The are not the white knight you're looking for.

Pattison likely wouldn't be a white knight, but they would give radio in Ontario a much needed shake up and more competition.  They and some other smaller broadcasters would give some new life to radio and hopefully some alternatives.

I wasn't sure that Rawlco was still around.  Looks like they have 7 stations, so not a lot.  Don't know where you got your figures.  BCE had revenues of $24.17 billion in 2022 and Rogers Communications $15.4 billion.  So Pattison in terms of revenue at $14 billion is considerably smaller than Bell and about 15% smaller than Rogers.  

 

August 7, 2023 3:17 pm  #202


Re: Bell Cuts 1,300, Closes 6 Stns., Including CJBK, Selling CKOC & CHAM

Sorry, I accidentally used a quarter for Rogers, not a year. 

Point being, Pattison is no more a radio broadcaster than Bell or Rogers.

paterson1 wrote:

Pattison likely wouldn't be a white knight, but they would give radio in Ontario a much needed shake up and more competition.   

How would they give new competition? Unless they buy part of a cluster, which would never happen, you're swapping one corporate behemoth for another.

 

August 7, 2023 4:50 pm  #203


Re: Bell Cuts 1,300, Closes 6 Stns., Including CJBK, Selling CKOC & CHAM

Pattison has been in radio since 1965 and own 48 stations in about 30 markets in western Canada.  Yes they are into various other businesses as well and are one of Canada's biggest companies. So what?

They also have a long and successful track record in radio, something that big blue doesn't have.  After the auto dealership, radio was one of the first businesses that Pattison invested in.

Of course they could buy part of a cluster here if something became available.  Another experienced operator in Ontario would absolutely be new competition.  How could it not be?  

Why did Bell not include radio in their latest financials?  They always have before. Does this indicate that radio is no longer an important part of Bell Media?   Are they planning to sell other stations?  Are they planning to get out of radio or drastically reduce the number of stations they currently own? 

Anything is possible.

 

August 7, 2023 7:06 pm  #204


Re: Bell Cuts 1,300, Closes 6 Stns., Including CJBK, Selling CKOC & CHAM

So, radio is a tiny part of their business. Rogers started with radio, too.

They “could” buy part of a cluster, but they won’t. It would be foolish. Every company will own the maximum number per market as they can. They’d be no more a “new” entrant any more than Stingray was when they bought NewCap.

Their success since the launch of JRfm has been buying already successful stations and leaving them well enough alone.

 

August 7, 2023 7:26 pm  #205


Re: Bell Cuts 1,300, Closes 6 Stns., Including CJBK, Selling CKOC & CHAM

Yes, but somebody could fold and want out .  Wouldn't be surprised if Stingray, Bell, Pattison and or Corus have stations for sale right now, or would consider selling.  Because broadcasters are so secretive and try to control all the information, it could be quick, out of the blue and surprising.  Or revenues may need to slide some more, but somebody will sell off some stations and or clusters, and they may not get what was hoped for.  Depends how bad they want out.  

 

August 7, 2023 7:53 pm  #206


Re: Bell Cuts 1,300, Closes 6 Stns., Including CJBK, Selling CKOC & CHAM

Yes, somebody will absolutely want out. But that won’t change the ownership concentration in any individual market.

And, Pattison expanding would have no positive impact on the health of the industry. Every station they’ve launched in a major market in the last 20 years has failed or is failing.

 

August 7, 2023 8:56 pm  #207


Re: Bell Cuts 1,300, Closes 6 Stns., Including CJBK, Selling CKOC & CHAM

Sorry, I disagree.  Radio in the major markets out west tend to be superior to Toronto from what I have heard. They seem more willing to try new things.  Eg. Q107 moving to talk with no CRTC approval, or experimenting with the talk/music engagement.  Part of this is because they have more competition or at least more variety with Pattison and a few smaller players in the mix.

If everything that Pattison fails as you claim, odd that they have so many stations and seem to claim that they are #1 or top 3 in many of their markets. I like the fact that they seem to be able to program both small market and major markets well.  

So, poo poo them all you want, I don't buy it.  They would be a welcome addition to the radio mix here and would make the others sharpen up and give the boring and somewhat lifeless big guys in Toronto a kick in the butt.  However Jim is long in the tooth, and who knows what the plan is when he moves on.

Anything can happen.. 

 

August 7, 2023 10:50 pm  #208


Re: Bell Cuts 1,300, Closes 6 Stns., Including CJBK, Selling CKOC & CHAM

You disagree with what exactly?

Failed:
Peak 102.7 Vancouver
Peak 95.3 Calgary
Drive 94.3 Winnipeg

Failing:
Now 102.7 Vancouver
Wild 95.3 Calgary
Now 94.3 Winnipeg

Yeah, they've experimented - and failed every time.

Also, JR was 10th in the latest Vancouver ratings. 

Look out Toronto; the company that's #10 and #14 in Vancouver and #9 and #13 in Calgary is coming for you!
 

Last edited by RadioAaron (August 7, 2023 11:16 pm)

 

August 8, 2023 8:41 am  #209


Re: Bell Cuts 1,300, Closes 6 Stns., Including CJBK, Selling CKOC & CHAM

You seem overly defensive about this for some reason. Must be something else going on here that you haven't shared.  Again seems odd that if Pattison was a failed broadcaster and not successful, that they would actually own 48 stations, and have such a long history in the business. 

If they decided to get out of the radio business, it likely would have more to do with the owner's personal situation rather than them being a "failed/failing" radio company.

You listed 3 failed/failing stations out of 48 that they own.  JR FM Vancouver was also number one a few books ago,  In fact you were remarking about the huge share the morning show had.  JR FM has been in the top 3 much more than at #10 over the past five years. Could the last book be a one off?

And some of the current failing stations you sight are also new formats, so a bit early to write them off.  102.7 only changed a year ago.  And their two Edmonton stations do quite well, leading in key demographics. 

Nice that a large company like Pattison isn't afraid to experiment, and that's what makes radio interesting.
Notice in the western markets this also forces companies like Rogers and others to be more daring with their formats.  Something that they don't do in Ontario. 

 

 

August 8, 2023 9:59 pm  #210


Re: Bell Cuts 1,300, Closes 6 Stns., Including CJBK, Selling CKOC & CHAM

I don't have any personal stake in this other than you being stubbornly wrong, again.

To repeat, all of the major market stations they have that are successful are somebody else's work, with the exception of JR. Everything they've launched has failed.

Where I do give them credit is when they buy something that's already successful, they manage to not screw it up, which is better than some other companies. Great win, I guess.

In retrospect, JR's great books were the outliers. They've now settled in a spot that makes more sense. That makes sense with Country - which has a smaller but more loyal audience. Ratings in that situation depend almost completely on meter placement.

Last edited by RadioAaron (August 8, 2023 10:01 pm)