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June 1, 2023 8:31 pm  #1


CFRB Is Doomed In The Ratings As Long As They Do This

Last March, RadioAaron was kind enough to supply the winter PPMs for Toronto stations. Many were stunned by how far CFRB seemed to have fallen - a 1.1, one of their lowest ratings perhaps ever. There could be all kinds of reasons for how the once mighty had fallen. But on Thursday, I got an ear-witness exposure to what may be one of them. 

It's not the hosts (although some here can't stand many of them.) It's not the topics. It's not even that they're on AM or all of the endless Bell cuts to the staff and the newsroom. After listening to it at various dayparts, I discovered what I think is at least a partial reason for its low rankings - the almost crushing, unbearable and unlistenable spot load. 

I woke up at 5:30 AM, which is early for me, and couldn't get back to sleep. So I lay there and turned on Moore in the Morning. When they went to commercial break, I honestly didn't think we'd ever hear John Moore again. The spot interruption lasted an almost unbelievable 5 minutes. It was so bad, that as I lay there only half awake, the sheer number of them actually woke me up and prompted me to tune to another station.

Fast forward to Thursday night. I'm walking the dog, who refused to go out all day because of the heat, and I had 1010 on in my headphones. At 7:30 PM, they went to a spot break. And all kidding aside, substitute host Richard Crouse could have almost gone out for dinner and a movie before they resumed the show. 

This one was five and a half minutes of back-to-back-to-back-to-back-to back 30 secs. spots, including, yes, Spence Diamonds and 1-800-GOT JUNK, which irritatingly air every single break. I don't care what the topic is - they could be talking about my family or reveal who really shot John F. Kennedy - but no one who can reach for their radio can possibly sit through all that. 

And it's not the first time I've heard this. I only stayed to see how long it would go. They departed at 7:30 PM on the nose and came back with bumper music at 7:35:30. That's inviting tune out. 

I realize commercials are how they make money and that times are tough in the biz these days. And while radio is an old medium, right now it's not a happy one. They simply have to cut down on the length of the interruptions if they ever expect to hold onto an audience. Maybe that partially explains that 1.1. That's about all the patience most listeners have to stay tuned through that ridiculously long a break in almost every daypart. What good is playing all those spots if no one is getting the message?

 

June 1, 2023 9:20 pm  #2


Re: CFRB Is Doomed In The Ratings As Long As They Do This

People don't listen to CFRB for hours on end like they did years ago.  So they likely listen to Moore In The Morning for 15-30 minutes and they are gone.  That's how I usually listen to them and don't really notice that their commercial load is overly annoying.  Also means I don't hear the Spence commercials (which don't really bug me) or the Cars for Kids.

The station doesn't have a particularly strong on air line up and I find a lot of the topics really aren't that interesting to me. Often they cover too many topics that have been talked about to death and they should move on to something else.  

Maybe Torontonians just aren't into opinion radio.  City News 680 does great, as does Radio 1.  RB and 640 have been squeezed out, those that like talk/information are listening to the other guys. 

 

June 1, 2023 10:09 pm  #3


Re: CFRB Is Doomed In The Ratings As Long As They Do This

I admit that I'm unusual in that I have the radio on much of the day while I do other things. So I get exposed to it more than most. Perhaps that's why I notice it so much. When I'm involved in something and I suddenly realize that the spot break has been going on for what seems like an eternity, I finally come to my senses and turn the station.

I think most would agree that 5 1/2 minutes of commercials is not exactly an inducement to stay tuned. One of the other issues is that they all go for their over-long breaks at the exact same time - generally the quarter hour mark, which makes perfect sense from a ratings point of view.

I think back to the Rick Sklar days when he was programming WABC-AM, at the time the most listened to station in New York if not all of the U.S. He would deliberately schedule the news at 5 to the hour, knowing most of the kids would quickly tune to Top 40 competitor WMCA to keep hearing music. But they'd all come back when MCA went to their news at the top of the hour and ABC was back rocking. It was a simple move, but it worked. 

If I were one of the competitors, I'd go slightly earlier to the break, let people turn off to another station if that's what they were going to do anyway, and then catch those same people tuning back when CFRB inevitably went for their five minute commercial cluster. I don't know how much difference it would make in the long run, but it might increase Time Spent Listening. 

Maybe pie in the sky, but I can't tell you how discouraging it is to tune from one station to another to another and they're all in commercial breaks at the exact same time.

     Thread Starter
 

June 1, 2023 10:58 pm  #4


Re: CFRB Is Doomed In The Ratings As Long As They Do This

The people listening for news and talk are listening to 680 and Radio 1.  CFRB and AM 640 are fighting over the crumbs. Moore's show is alright in the morning and I hope he is still doing well ratings wise.  Ten minute commercial breaks are not out of the question in the US, even for music stations.  

CFRB has likely the weakest on air line up that I can recall.  That is their real problem. 

 

June 2, 2023 6:17 am  #5


Re: CFRB Is Doomed In The Ratings As Long As They Do This

paterson1 wrote:

   People don't listen to CFRB for hours on end like they did years ago   

Could it be that the data of a few years ago was incorrect?      Or that the most recent data is incorrect?     For 1010 listenership to have almost totally collapsed in just a few reporting periods seems unlikely
 

 

June 2, 2023 6:38 am  #6


Re: CFRB Is Doomed In The Ratings As Long As They Do This

1010's issue is a very, very, very weak morning show that leads into the day.
Left wing musings from Moore + his 'guests' and constant references to how great life is in Montreal had me leave long ago.

 

June 2, 2023 7:12 am  #7


Re: CFRB Is Doomed In The Ratings As Long As They Do This

Moore has grown on me over the years and I actually like his show now.  Yes, he leans left, but unlike some here, I enjoy getting all points of view. But having listened I can also say I think he's mostly fair with his guests and that's all you can really ask in a host. 

I do agree with paterson1 on one point - CFRB's line-up is suspect. After Vassy Kapelos is done for the day at 2 PM, I'm gone and I don't really come back to 1010 until the next morning.

     Thread Starter
 

June 2, 2023 8:23 am  #8


Re: CFRB Is Doomed In The Ratings As Long As They Do This

Agree.  This may be the worst line up in the history of CFRB.  To be fair they are playing with half a team now and no clear leadership.

Here's what I don't get?   

The only success they have on TSN is Overdrive.   The model works.   Why do they not carbon copy that to 1010?   

Find a good anchor with 2 good cohosts.  Do it on the radio and simulcast on CP 24 for an hour or two?   Seems like a no brainer.

 

June 2, 2023 9:30 am  #9


Re: CFRB Is Doomed In The Ratings As Long As They Do This

The moment 1010 killed their newsroom and replaced them with tv people trying to do radio as a side job, it was game over for 1010.     Their newsroom supported the shows very well.   Their newsroom really held the station together.   Now without that support, and a budget that can't support talent, afternoon drive and evenings having a revolving door, the place is a sitting in ruff shape.   Unless Bell is going to get serious and throw some money to fix the mess they made, I think they have yet to see the bottom.    The mighty have fallen.   The bigger question...will Bell pull the plug?

Last edited by radiokid (June 2, 2023 9:30 am)

 

June 2, 2023 9:34 am  #10


Re: CFRB Is Doomed In The Ratings As Long As They Do This

RadioQuiz wrote:

Agree. This may be the worst line up in the history of CFRB. To be fair they are playing with half a team now and no clear leadership.

Here's what I don't get?

The only success they have on TSN is Overdrive. The model works. Why do they not carbon copy that to 1010?

Find a good anchor with 2 good cohosts. Do it on the radio and simulcast on CP 24 for an hour or two? Seems like a no brainer.

TV audio on Radio is not a winner.   It's cost containment.    Sports you can get away with more of this.... News Talk and News?  Not so much.   Look at CTV NEWS AT 6 AND CTV NATIONAL NEWS ratings on 1010.   Not a win...  Only is cheap to do.   

 

June 2, 2023 9:39 am  #11


Re: CFRB Is Doomed In The Ratings As Long As They Do This

1983:

 

     Thread Starter
 

June 2, 2023 9:44 am  #12


Re: CFRB Is Doomed In The Ratings As Long As They Do This

peter wrote:

1010's issue is a very, very, very weak morning show that leads into the day.
Left wing musings from Moore + his 'guests' and constant references to how great life is in Montreal had me leave long ago.

re: 1010's issue is a very, very, very weak morning show ...  
So  you say Moore has a very, very, very weak show but you stopped listening a long time ago .. so you don't have a blinking clue what his show is like today & don't have a clue how skilled an interviewer John is.

re: Left wing musings from Moore + his 'guests' ..
Please find us anyone who considers the likes of Deb Hutton, Tim Hudak,  Mark Warner to be "Left wing musers". 

Moore is head & shoulders x 10 better than any other Newtalk 1010 host [excluding Vassey in this comparison as I just don't listen to radio at her time slot].  Moore is a huge step up from predecessors Woloshyn & Carroll.  

Moore is actually as much a libertarian as liberal which many conservatives seem to miss. 

 

 

June 2, 2023 10:00 am  #13


Re: CFRB Is Doomed In The Ratings As Long As They Do This

A bunch of things....

-The audience is literally dying off and not being replaced. And they won't be, so long as there's...

-No marketing. In Ottawa, you can't watch CTV for five minutes without seeing a CFRA logo. Not here

-The technical decline of AM & Increase in urbanization. I couldn't listen to AM at home or on my commute if I wanted to. It's now almost a car-only medium, and those are getting worse as automakers reduce frequency response to avoid electrical interference.

-The rise of the CBC, especially with younger audiences. FM, solid digital strategy, more reflective of the population. They're the dominant talk outlet in many markets.

-The political whiplash. "Different points of view" is all well and good, but not when it's in the form of a host ranting or arguing. It's like if a music station played country in the morning and alternative in the afternoon.

 

June 2, 2023 11:20 am  #14


Re: CFRB Is Doomed In The Ratings As Long As They Do This

We all know that Jerry Agar is a hard right-wing pundit -- not extreme, just really old school small town right wing.
But today I was bemused by how he twists logic to fit his opinions so that he is right.
As I drove my car on morning errands he was talking about schools, public vs private, vs religious.
A man called in to say that private and religious schools limit diversity and tend to create "silos" of same-type students.
To which Agar exploded with anger, saying the following.
So you would tell people from India that when they come to Canada they have to abandon their culture and heritage? you say you are for diversity but you would deny diversity of schools like private and religious -- you are the one who is against diversity!
Then he hung up on the caller.

 

 

June 2, 2023 12:08 pm  #15


Re: CFRB Is Doomed In The Ratings As Long As They Do This

I turn on 1010 at noon and there it was the worst show ever in the history of radio - Chatter That Don't Matter. 

 

June 2, 2023 12:45 pm  #16


Re: CFRB Is Doomed In The Ratings As Long As They Do This

Agreed. It's among my quickest tune outs - right up there with the Tom's Place commercials!

     Thread Starter
 

June 2, 2023 2:02 pm  #17


Re: CFRB Is Doomed In The Ratings As Long As They Do This

A while back I was listening to that horrible chatter show and what's his name was interviewing a woman who he introduced as one of the most brilliant and innovative media consultants and artists he had ever met.
She was apparently a famous musician in her earlier years, though I had never heard of her.
As the show progressed it was slowly revealed the woman, who praised what's his name, profusely was actually once his PR trainee and was actually a relative nobody who just happened to run a successful PR business.
But he interviewed her like she was a deep intellectual and spiritual inspiration.
One I realized all that I turned the dial.

 

 

June 2, 2023 2:50 pm  #18


Re: CFRB Is Doomed In The Ratings As Long As They Do This

Yeah the Chatter show sucks. Exceptionally dishonest paid programming. By his voice alone, the host sounds like a shifty-eyed weasel.

 

June 2, 2023 3:18 pm  #19


Re: CFRB Is Doomed In The Ratings As Long As They Do This

RadioActive wrote: I think back to the Rick Sklar days when he was programming WABC-AM, at the time the most listened to station in New York if not all of the U.S. He would deliberately schedule the news at 5 to the hour, knowing most of the kids would quickly tune to Top 40 competitor WMCA to keep hearing music. But they'd all come back when MCA went to their news at the top of the hour and ABC was back rocking. It was a simple move, but it worked. 

RA - Allan Slaight had CHUM News at :55 BEFORE Rick Sklar at WABC. CHUM News was "5 minutes before the hour - First News...first" starting in 1960 (it might have even been slightly earlier).  Sklar didn't get to WABC until 1962 and didn't become Program Director until '63.

Last edited by Doug Thompson (June 2, 2023 3:19 pm)

 

June 2, 2023 3:32 pm  #20


Re: CFRB Is Doomed In The Ratings As Long As They Do This

Have a look at their published program schedule and ask yourself if anyone at Newstalk 1010 CFRB cares. Scroll down the page to see the full list. Count how many faces are no longer employed there. 

How's that for accuracy?

https://www.iheartradio.ca/newstalk-1010/events/weekday-schedule-1.2667858

 

June 2, 2023 3:33 pm  #21


Re: CFRB Is Doomed In The Ratings As Long As They Do This

I never knew that. Yet another innovation from a radio station that was full of them back then. I also remember a very quick CHUM feature called "Split Second Sports" in which they very quickly give the latest scores and then moved on. 

     Thread Starter
 

June 2, 2023 5:01 pm  #22


Re: CFRB Is Doomed In The Ratings As Long As They Do This

I started listening to CFRB about 25 years ago and what brought me to the station was that it provided all the information a person required for the day.  The hosts were insightful, intelligent and mostly tried to present balanced views.  People like Andy Barrie, Jane Hawtin, and, yes, John Oakley (at the time) come to mind.  The newsroom was just as well stacked with the likes of Dave Agar, Tayler Pharnaby, Dave Trafford and the blossoming Avery Haines.  They were flanked by Henry Shannon doing air traffic, Bill Stephenson/Dave Quinn on sports and the Weather Network.  I recall my favourite time to listen was around Noon when Tayler Pharnaby did his daily commentary.  There are still a few bright lights at CFRB but as the years pass the impacts of ongoing cost cuts has diluted content and the downward spiral continues.  Other influences like social media are not helping the cause.

Last edited by JackofAll (June 2, 2023 5:02 pm)

 

June 2, 2023 5:01 pm  #23


Re: CFRB Is Doomed In The Ratings As Long As They Do This

RadioAaron wrote:

A bunch of things....

-The audience is literally dying off and not being replaced. And they won't be, so long as there's...

-No marketing. In Ottawa, you can't watch CTV for five minutes without seeing a CFRA logo. Not here

-The technical decline of AM & Increase in urbanization. I couldn't listen to AM at home or on my commute if I wanted to. It's now almost a car-only medium, and those are getting worse as automakers reduce frequency response to avoid electrical interference.

-The rise of the CBC, especially with younger audiences. FM, solid digital strategy, more reflective of the population. They're the dominant talk outlet in many markets.

-The political whiplash. "Different points of view" is all well and good, but not when it's in the form of a host ranting or arguing. It's like if a music station played country in the morning and alternative in the afternoon.

... and I think you missed another significant point.....  Smartphones

The audience (certainly the younger generations), have migrated away from traditional "radio" and TV, to consume content on their smartphones.  With so much choice available, the notion of a talk show, at a locked-in time-slot, on "the radio", doesn't even enter the minds of many.






 

 

June 2, 2023 5:50 pm  #24


Re: CFRB Is Doomed In The Ratings As Long As They Do This

I've listened to 1010 since the early 1990s but mainly in the car and on weekends at home, even running into many of the personalities at Chandlers across the street, one time my local drinking hole.   I'm still in the area, they've moved.   Anyway,  my listening has shifted to more at home because of retirement and some mornings I switch it off or mute because the nerve wracking ad bombardment is so constant and repetitive it seems like a 50/50 ratio of content to ads in the mornings.   I like Moore, but the ads are too much sometimes.   Of course when I'm in the car I just hit a button during the long ad breaks and they've lost me to a competitor.    The rise of CBC-1 could be because they aren't playing ads and it's all content, something 1010 can't do, but there's a tipping point where the ads detract so much from the content that it's too bothersome to listen and they've hit it.     They may be maximizing revenue with excessive ads, but they're losing listeners in the process.   They've dropped a long way from when they laid claim to being "most listened to station" in Toronto in 1990-92.

Last edited by SpinningWheel (June 2, 2023 5:57 pm)

 

June 2, 2023 6:17 pm  #25


Re: CFRB Is Doomed In The Ratings As Long As They Do This

In Phase wrote:

RadioAaron wrote:

A bunch of things....

-The audience is literally dying off and not being replaced. And they won't be, so long as there's...

-No marketing. In Ottawa, you can't watch CTV for five minutes without seeing a CFRA logo. Not here

-The technical decline of AM & Increase in urbanization. I couldn't listen to AM at home or on my commute if I wanted to. It's now almost a car-only medium, and those are getting worse as automakers reduce frequency response to avoid electrical interference.

-The rise of the CBC, especially with younger audiences. FM, solid digital strategy, more reflective of the population. They're the dominant talk outlet in many markets.

-The political whiplash. "Different points of view" is all well and good, but not when it's in the form of a host ranting or arguing. It's like if a music station played country in the morning and alternative in the afternoon.

... and I think you missed another significant point.....  Smartphones

The audience (certainly the younger generations), have migrated away from traditional "radio" and TV, to consume content on their smartphones.  With so much choice available, the notion of a talk show, at a locked-in time-slot, on "the radio", doesn't even enter the minds of many.






 

For sure, but I was looking for things that have affected CFRB specifically, as the ratings posted are market share, not overall listener numbers.

 

June 2, 2023 6:25 pm  #26


Re: CFRB Is Doomed In The Ratings As Long As They Do This

Dial Twister wrote:

Have a look at their published program schedule and ask yourself if anyone at Newstalk 1010 CFRB cares. Scroll down the page to see the full list. Count how many faces are no longer employed there. 

How's that for accuracy?

https://www.iheartradio.ca/newstalk-1010/events/weekday-schedule-1.2667858

I lose confidence quickly in organizations that do this.   How can they claim to be a legitimate information hub when they can't get iHeart or their own staff to keep something this simple and important up-to-date?   I used the iHeart app a few times and found it to be useless.    Until sometime in 2022 their online stream interrupted every 15 minutes causing it to disconnect on apps like TuneIn and was often doing the same with iHeart's.   I tried it with PC desktop and Android (TV & phone) with the same results.   Made it tough to listen that way.

Last edited by SpinningWheel (June 2, 2023 6:43 pm)

 

June 2, 2023 6:50 pm  #27


Re: CFRB Is Doomed In The Ratings As Long As They Do This

SpinningWheel wrote:

I lose confidence quickly in organizations that do this.   How can they claim to be a legitimate information hub when they can't get iHeart or their own staff to keep something this simple and important up-to-date?

That's an old link (the "events" in the URL) - current site presents https://www.iheartradio.ca/newstalk-1010/shows and is accurate. You're correct in that they should keep that up-to-date, but in content management systems if it's often considered "enough" to delink them from a main or otherwise navigateable page so nobody will organically hit them up (i.e. no reference), though search engines may still have crawled them. 


I used the iHeart app a few times and found it to be useless.    Until sometime in 2022 their online stream interrupted every 15 minutes causing it to disconnect on apps like TuneIn and was often doing the same with iHeart's.   I tried it with PC desktop and Android (TV & phone) with the same results.   Made it tough to listen that way.

I found the same. Much better results with a third-party site like https://onlineradiobox.com/ca/cfrb/?cs=ca.cfrb&played=1 where you can get hours uninterrupted.

 

June 2, 2023 8:00 pm  #28


Re: CFRB Is Doomed In The Ratings As Long As They Do This

JackofAll wrote:

I started listening to CFRB about 25 years ago and what brought me to the station was that it provided all the information a person required for the day.  The hosts were insightful, intelligent and mostly tried to present balanced views. 

Ah, yes.The Motts railing against migrant Gypsies. Coren raging against <minority du jour>. Adler steaming at anyone who wasn't rich. So much more civilised than now.
Edit - I'm sure there are some on this board who can attest to this golden age of public discourse on CFRB. Don't be shy!

Last edited by Chrisphen (June 2, 2023 8:01 pm)

 

June 2, 2023 8:08 pm  #29


Re: CFRB Is Doomed In The Ratings As Long As They Do This

Chrisphen wrote:

JackofAll wrote:

I started listening to CFRB about 25 years ago and what brought me to the station was that it provided all the information a person required for the day.  The hosts were insightful, intelligent and mostly tried to present balanced views. 

Ah, yes.The Motts railing against migrant Gypsies. Coren raging against <minority du jour>. Adler steaming at anyone who wasn't rich. So much more civilised than now.
Edit - I'm sure there are some on this board who can attest to this golden age of public discourse on CFRB. Don't be shy!

Yep, and that's yet another reason they can't attract new listeners. That is 100% the perception of people who know about the station but don't listen to it.
 

 

June 3, 2023 3:00 pm  #30


Re: CFRB Is Doomed In The Ratings As Long As They Do This

Doug Thompson wrote:

RadioActive wrote: I think back to the Rick Sklar days when he was programming WABC-AM, at the time the most listened to station in New York if not all of the U.S. He would deliberately schedule the news at 5 to the hour, knowing most of the kids would quickly tune to Top 40 competitor WMCA to keep hearing music. But they'd all come back when MCA went to their news at the top of the hour and ABC was back rocking. It was a simple move, but it worked. 

RA - Allan Slaight had CHUM News at :55 BEFORE Rick Sklar at WABC. CHUM News was "5 minutes before the hour - First News...first" starting in 1960 (it might have even been slightly earlier).  Sklar didn't get to WABC until 1962 and didn't become Program Director until '63.

Correct. CHUM had news at :55 as early as May 1958, according to this aircheck from 5-15-58:

http://rockradioscrapbook.ca/chum-dobbs-may15-58.mp3
 


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