The Southern Ontario/WNY Radio-TV Forum » CHIN Wants Yet Another Toronto Radio Station

RadioActive · November 28, 2016 12:25 pm

The city's original ethnic broadcaster already has two stations in Toronto - AM 1540 and its FM counterpart at 100.7. But they also have (in my mind) a totally unnecessary rebroadcast signal at 91.9 on FM that simulcasts its AM output in stereo. They originally got it because they told the Commission the night pattern of 1540 makes it impossible to receive after dark

Now the Lombardis want to take that 91.1 frequency separate and air 126 hours of original programming a week during the day, while restoring 1540 back at night.

I hope the CRTC denies this application. I have nothing against CHIN (in fact, I began my broadcasting career there as a trainee back in the early 70s.) But CHIN knew what it was getting when it snagged a very rare second FM frequency in the biggest market in Canada and to simply flip it to a de facto third outlet seems unfair to the other ethnic stations in town or anyone who might have coveted that same channel.

Still, the CRTC almost always bends over backward to encourage such broadcasters, so I'd be surprised if they turn the application down. (I find it hilarious that in their original submission to the CRTC, they accidentally checked the "no" box when asked if any religious programming they might air would promise to be balanced. They later called it a "typo" and formally issued a correction. That's quite a mistake to make for a station with an ethnic format!)

CHIN wants 91.1 to go its separate ways

tvguy · November 28, 2016 4:51 pm

Their current rebroadcasting transmitter operates on 91.9 MHz (1st adjacent from CIXL-FM).
The 91.9 frequency relays AM1540 which has a severe night time power reduction.
I understand that they would no longer relay AM1540 and program 91.9 MHz with separate original content.

Radiowiz · November 28, 2016 4:56 pm

RadioActive wrote:
CHIN wants 91.1 to go its separate ways

Jazz FM has nothing to do with this.

Last edited by Radiowiz (November 28, 2016 4:56 pm)

cGrant · November 28, 2016 5:19 pm

Let the CRTC approve the decision. In Canada's most multicultural city, non-English programming is a very distant second to the current slate of English fare.

Radiowiz · November 28, 2016 5:24 pm

cGrant wrote:
Let the CRTC approve the decision. In Canada's most multicultural city, non-English programming is a very distant second to the current slate of English fare.

That may depend on whether or not any other parties will object. ie 101.3 FM etc...or what about Evanov group's AM 530?
Will any of this new programming be a threat to existing stations in the market?

cGrant · November 28, 2016 5:40 pm

Radiowiz wrote:
Will any of this new programming be a threat to existing stations in the market?

I appreciate your thoughts. That said, given the veritable plethora of tongues in the Big City, are they all currently represented to the maximum? Surely, there is room within the spectrum for an underserved community.

RadioActive · November 28, 2016 5:54 pm

My point is that 91.9 (sorry about the number typo in the original post) was licensed solely as a rebroadcaster of the AM station, and that's the basis on which the CRTC granted the use of increasingly rare FM spectrum space. To want to add a de facto third station to the market by these covert means reminds me of the many times we've seen periphery stations ask for big power boosts so they could better serve "their community of licence." We all know what they're really doing is trying to get carve out more listener space in Toronto.

Imagine if AM 740 suddenly started a brand new station at 96.7, after pleading so much electrical interference on their AM signal, Moses was threatening to shut the entire thing down if they didn't get the repeater. A repeater is just that. But a new station is an entirely different animal.

In fact, in the documents filed by owner Lenny Lombardi to the CRTC, he actually refers to the proposal as a "new radio station."

"...the financial benefits of the synergies between our proposed new radio station and our current holdings will accrue to the new station and not to our existing radio stations."

If it is a new station, as Lenny suggests, then he should have to apply for a third licence, with all the competition that would bring from others looking for the same frequency. Seems to me CHIN gets a free pass here, since they already have that dial position to themselves. And that puts the other outlets in and around the GTA, including those on AM's X-band, at a big - and I'm arguing, unfair - disadvantage.

There may, in fact, be lots of room for more ethnic formats in the city. But that doesn't mean it should just automatically go to CHIN, when they want to use the space for something that wasn't part of their original condition of licence.

Last edited by RadioActive (November 28, 2016 6:13 pm)

RadioActive · November 28, 2016 6:09 pm

tvguy wrote:
Their current rebroadcasting transmitter operates on 91.9 MHz (1st adjacent from CIXL-FM).
The 91.9 frequency relays AM1540 which has a severe night time power reduction.
I understand that they would no longer relay AM1540 and program 91.9 MHz with separate original content.

Actually, if you dig deeper into the documents filed with the Commission, you'll see the plan is to have original content during the day and resume the simulcast at night, when the AM's power is reduced. Talk about having your cake and - well, you know.

"In this application, we are seeking authority to originate new ethnic programming on FM 91.9 only during the day, while continuing to rebroadcast CHIN-AM programming on that frequency during the evening. The rebroadcast of CHIN-AM programming on FM 91.9 during the day does not make a significant contribution to the financial performance of the station because the CHIN-AM signal is not subject to technical constraints in the day-time and reliable service is available throughout the licensed service area."

cGrant · November 28, 2016 6:19 pm

They specialize in multicultural programming. Why bother have the other companies argue for yet another CHR or further dilution of an already saturated market. I understand your point and passion for it. After some time, CHIN realized that daytime retransmission of a solid AM signal isn't necessary.

I don't see Bell, Corus or the usual entrants delving into multicultural programming. Like I say, give CHIN a pass on this one.

Radiowiz · November 28, 2016 6:40 pm

cGrant wrote:
They specialize in multicultural programming. Why bother have the other companies argue for yet another CHR or further dilution of an already saturated market. I understand your point and passion for it. After some time, CHIN realized that daytime retransmission of a solid AM signal isn't necessary.

I don't see Bell, Corus or the usual entrants delving into multicultural programming. Like I say, give CHIN a pass on this one.

I'm with RadioActive on this one. Unless there is programming that no one else is willing to cover, CHIN should not automatically be granted the go ahead.
The other ethnic broadcasters deserve to be protected.

Don't rule out EVANOV radio group. I don't blame them if they'd like to speak up on this issue.
(They own AM 530...what if AM 530 is also full...)

cGrant · November 28, 2016 6:51 pm

Radiowiz wrote:
Unless there is programming that no one else is willing to cover, CHIN should not automatically be granted the go ahead.
The other ethnic broadcasters deserve to be protected.

Well, THAT'S my point: CHIN most likely does want to cover programming the others aren't currently providing.

Protect the other ethnic broadcasters from what?! If they aren't broadcasting a language that CHIN wants to broadcast, then protection is futile. Clearly, there's a need and lack of alternative or CHIN wouldn't be proposing this change.

November 28, 2016 7:05 pm

If the programming is going to be separate, the process definitely has to be opened up to others. Third language programming in becoming incredibly competitive, especially for scarce FM space. I cannot see this being approved.

cGrant · November 28, 2016 7:12 pm

Don wrote:
If the programming is going to be separate, the process definitely has to be opened up to others.

Not to be too simplistic, but the process IS opened to the other ethnic broadcasters. They have the option to program their signal with whatever missing language CHIN is going to fill.

Radiowiz · November 28, 2016 7:37 pm

cGrant wrote:
Not to be too simplistic, but the process IS opened to the other ethnic broadcasters. They have the option to program their signal with whatever missing language CHIN is going to fill.

...which brings things back to Evanov group and whether or not they see a need for an FM repeater/other.
Their AM is a good strong signal, but maybe they'd also like to do something more on FM...

splunge · November 28, 2016 9:39 pm

I think the bottom line to alleviate all of your arguments... is that this should have gone to a Call for Applications. The Commission has it in their power to determine exactly what Don was saying...open it up to others. And that would appeal to cGrant's argument that toronto needs more multicultural voices.

I personally hold the opinion that there's only so much of the advertising pie to go around....

Radiowiz · November 29, 2016 9:29 am

splunge wrote:
I think the bottom line to alleviate all of your arguments... is that this should have gone to a Call for Applications. The Commission has it in their power to determine exactly what Don was saying...open it up to others. And that would appeal to cGrant's argument that toronto needs more multicultural voices.

I personally hold the opinion that there's only so much of the advertising pie to go around....

Thank-you. That's exactly the point well made.
However, as far as the "advertising pie" goes, If I were 1430, I'd rather run ads for T&T supermarket than for Loblaws even though they're the same company...just sayin'...same could go for CHIN radio & others in the ethnic category.

RadioActive · November 29, 2016 10:35 am

Well, I think we can agree on one thing – CHIN has never received more attention on SOWNY in any of its various incarnations.

I’ve always been amazed how this station gets a free pass from other media. The CHIN Picnic is covered every year by every radio and TV newsroom, and even makes the newspapers, which otherwise essentially treat radio as if it doesn’t exist.

Can you imagine Bell’s CFRB or Corus’s AM 640 giving it any mention at all if it was the annual Rogers Picnic? Unless there’s some kind of violence or strange occurrence, the MuchMusic Video Awards are no longer acknowledged on City TV, because it’s now a hated competitor’s property. (Ironic, when you consider City used to own Much and would lead newscasts with it.)

Yet CHIN gets covered by everyone all the time. Perhaps it’s kind of an insult, that they don’t consider it competition, so it’s OK to allow its biggest promotion of the year on your airwaves. But I learned from one of my early news directors that anything that keeps ears away from your station is something you’d prefer not to give publicity to, that everything is a competitor. So how is it that CHIN seemingly always defies that logic?

Radiowiz · November 29, 2016 10:58 am

RadioActive wrote:
Well, I think we can agree on one thing – CHIN has never received more attention on SOWNY in any of its various incarnations.

I’ve always been amazed how this station gets a free pass from other media. The CHIN Picnic is covered every year by every radio and TV newsroom, and even makes the newspapers, which otherwise essentially treat radio as if it doesn’t exist.

Can you imagine Bell’s CFRB or Corus’s AM 640 giving it any mention at all if it was the annual Rogers Picnic? Unless there’s some kind of violence or strange occurrence, the MuchMusic Video Awards are no longer acknowledged on City TV, because it’s now a hated competitor’s property. (Ironic, when you consider City used to own Much and would lead newscasts with it.)

Yet CHIN gets covered by everyone all the time. Perhaps it’s kind of an insult, that they don’t consider it competition, so it’s OK to allow its biggest promotion of the year on your airwaves. But I learned from one of my early news directors that anything that keeps ears away from your station is something you’d prefer not to give publicity to, that everything is a competitor. So how is it that CHIN seemingly always defies that logic?

Sundays 11:30-1:30 CHIN is still airing programming on City TV. Rogers gets benefit of the doubt for maybe having a business relationship (of some sort) with CHIN.
I'm not sure what Bell or Corus's excuse would be...

November 29, 2016 12:45 pm

RadioActive wrote:
CHIN has never received more attention on SOWNY in any of its various incarnations

CHIN's various incarnations or SOWNY's?

Peter the K · November 29, 2016 1:03 pm

CHIN has had their Sunday program on CITY long before Rogers acquired the station. Actually, they started in the 70s on Global (sharing the same studio space that produced SCTV) with some programming also on CKVR.

As for why other media outlets paid attention to CHIN, they were, generally speaking, never really considered competition for the mainstream broadcasters in the first place. Part of the reason was because CHIN didn't pay attention to ratings because the established wisdom was that immigrants weren't willing or able to fill out the books anyway. Besides, since the time was brokered, the real proof in the pudding was whether the advertising had any positive results which was relatively easy to measure.

RadioActive · November 29, 2016 5:09 pm

geo wrote:
RadioActive wrote:
CHIN has never received more attention on SOWNY in any of its various incarnations
CHIN's various incarnations or SOWNY's?

The Dale/Craig/Phil/Iain versions of SOWNY.

November 29, 2016 6:49 pm

They want another frequency Kenneth? Give it too them. Bell and Rodgers have too many, Why not CHIN? There should be no debate...at all...whatsoever...ever.

I want one too.

November 29, 2016 11:03 pm

cGrant wrote:
Don wrote:
If the programming is going to be separate, the process definitely has to be opened up to others.
Not to be too simplistic, but the process IS opened to the other ethnic broadcasters. They have the option to program their signal with whatever missing language CHIN is going to fill.

I'm talking about ethnic broadcasters that don't currently have a signal to program.