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July 25, 2022 9:46 am  #1


The slow death of AM/FM radio in your car

This has been discussed more than once on this board but the snowball is growing....“AM radio has fallen out of favor in Europe, with Radio Info reporting in 2015 that stations were shutting down en masse from France to the Netherlands and Russia. The frequency has largely been superseded by the DAB format, which is a more advanced form of radio broadcasting with better audio quality and choice of stations.“AM radio stations and their listeners are all but gone in Europe, so European carmakers may not need to include technology that many of its customers can't use.”AM radio has lost its luster here in the States, too.  In Techsurvey 2002, we ask those in the market for a new vehicle in this calendar year to check off the media features they find most important in their next car.  This year, FM was edged out by Bluetooth for the first time ever.  AM, however, is well down the list of key priorities, deemed important by only one in three.

https://jacobsmedia.com/memo-to-radio-the-gloves-are-off/
 

 

July 25, 2022 9:54 am  #2


Re: The slow death of AM/FM radio in your car

DAB works in parts of the EU, because of several reasons.  The frequencies used in the EU, (174-240 MHZ band) allow for good propagation of the signals.  In Canada Industry Canada - supported by the big broadcasters,  adopted frequencies in the microwave band, (1.452 gigahertz) which did not penetrate into buildings.   With a combined market of several hundred million consumers, radio manufacturers capitalized on that massive market, for car radios.  The 10 or 12 million car radio market in Canada did not even move the "needle" for manufacturers to embrace the technology.  But worse still, after many years of fooling around, CHUM, Rogers, Corus, and Astral never bothered to construct a reasonable network of transmitters.  That was a condition precedent, particularly in the Windsor-Quebec City corridor for the auto makers to add it to car radios.  I met with top execs at GM and Honda.  They wasted millions being jerked around by the Canadian broadcasters.   I'm watching my language.  "Jerked around" is not the term they used.

 In the EU,  networks were well-designed and built out, so that there was reception on motorways, etc.  No wonder why they are seeing success with DAB. But there is no comparison with the second-rate technology that was never (properly) deployed in Canada.

Last edited by tvguy (July 25, 2022 9:57 am)

 

July 25, 2022 9:56 am  #3


Re: The slow death of AM/FM radio in your car

Interesting article and I've read the warnings before. But the fact remains I would not even consider a new car without AM in it. There is nothing on FM I'm remotely interested in and I can't see that changing. A dinosaur? Yes, I suppose I am and we know what happened to them. But at least I'm a loyal dinosaur and they're a rapidly vanishing breed, too. 

The other advantage to AM which can never be stressed enough is during an emergency, especially a power outage. I think back to Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans when 50K powerhouse WWL was the designated disaster station. All the other stations in the area, with only a few exceptions, simply rebroadcast WWL's signal. 

That was fine if you were in New Orleans proper. But if you were in the outlying areas or another parish, those FM and weaker AM signals couldn't get to you. But WWL could. For many, it was their only source of information when there was no electricity, no Internet and no cell phone service and the world as they knew it was ending around them.

I know AM can't be kept alive just for the occasional and thankfully rare disaster. But it sure is nice to have it when it happens. 

Until it's completely eliminated from every vehicle, I won't buy one or feel right without it. So while I may be a dinosaur, I'm not a Tyrannosaurus Rex. More like a nervous Rex! 

 

July 25, 2022 10:24 am  #4


Re: The slow death of AM/FM radio in your car

RadioActive wrote:

Interesting article and I've read the warnings before. But the fact remains I would not even consider a new car without AM in it. There is nothing on FM I'm remotely interested in and I can't see that changing. A dinosaur? Yes, I suppose I am and we know what happened to them. But at least I'm a loyal dinosaur and they're a rapidly vanishing breed, too. 

The other advantage to AM which can never be stressed enough is during an emergency, especially a power outage. I think back to Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans when 50K powerhouse WWL was the designated disaster station. All the other stations in the area, with only a few exceptions, simply rebroadcast WWL's signal. 

That was fine if you were in New Orleans proper. But if you were in the outlying areas or another parish, those FM and weaker AM signals couldn't get to you. But WWL could. For many, it was their only source of information when there was no electricity, no Internet and no cell phone service and the world as they knew it was ending around them.

I know AM can't be kept alive just for the occasional and thankfully rare disaster. But it sure is nice to have it when it happens. 

Until it's completely eliminated from every vehicle, I won't buy one or feel right without it. So while I may be a dinosaur, I'm not a Tyrannosaurus Rex. More like a nervous Rex! 

Sadly, I think AM's days are numbered, in analog form.    Electric cars have almost all dropped AM due to noise issues caused by the motors.   This really is concerning because so many broadcasters are sitting back and doing little with their AM stations to transition them to the future.    Once we hit the electric car date of (2035?)  this will be be end of AM unless some plan is put in place to transition these stations.    They also have just over 13 years to figure out how to get the market fully ready.    So far, they have done very little...    
 

Last edited by radiokid (July 25, 2022 10:25 am)

 

July 25, 2022 10:39 am  #5


Re: The slow death of AM/FM radio in your car

=12pxInteresting article and I've read the warnings before. But the fact remains I would not even consider a new car without AM in it. There is nothing on FM I'm remotely interested in and I can't see that changing. A dinosaur? Yes, I suppose I am and we know what happened to them. But at least I'm a loyal dinosaur and they're a rapidly vanishing breed, too. 

=12pxThe other advantage to AM which can never be stressed enough is during an emergency, especially a power outage. I think back to Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans when 50K powerhouse WWL was the designated disaster station. All the other stations in the area, with only a few exceptions, simply rebroadcast WWL's signal. 

=12pxThat was fine if you were in New Orleans proper. But if you were in the outlying areas or another parish, those FM and weaker AM signals couldn't get to you. But WWL could. For many, it was their only source of information when there was no electricity, no Internet and no cell phone service and the world as they knew it was ending around them.

=12pxI know AM can't be kept alive just for the occasional and thankfully rare disaster. But it sure is nice to have it when it happens. 

=12pxUntil it's completely eliminated from every vehicle, I won't buy one or feel right without it. So while I may be a dinosaur, I'm not a Tyrannosaurus Rex. More like a nervous Rex! 

You don't have to have an AM radio to listen to AM, most if not all broadcasters have an app that works on all modern cars .. No muss no fuss you can listen to AM radio in DAB quality with NO dropouts. Jacobs Media spoke at Radio Active conference in June and had so much to share .. 
 

 

July 25, 2022 10:51 am  #6


Re: The slow death of AM/FM radio in your car

AM is horrible to listen to especially in a car.   Last night coming from the cottage down the 400 trying to tune 680 which did come in but was suffering from DX of fading in and out and then the added lightning from the storm was even more useless.   Surprised it still exists.   Had no choice but to stream it. 

 

July 25, 2022 11:13 am  #7


Re: The slow death of AM/FM radio in your car

A couple other points I'm now just over a year with an EV without AM radio.  It is not a big deal for me.  I'm a very happy consumer...particularly when it comes to energy costs, and the entertainment options in my vehicle (HD Radio, streaming, etc).

Aside from Sportsnet 590 - which has signfiicant signal drop out/loss  issues on Rogers' 92.5 HD3 past Oshawa, Brampton, and Hollarnd Marsh, (AM on) HD or streaming works for me in my vehicle's entertainment system much of the time (it would not be an issue if Sportsnet 590 was on CHFI HD - but that's a Master Antenna issue that isn't being resolved any time soon).  The problem for streaming, is cellular network outages in rural areas (My car is probably on Bell's LTE network) - 401 from belleville to Picton,  Creemore to Collingood.  And as mentioned before, Rogers as an MLB team owner, not confronting the MLB streaming blackout for AM stations such as Sportsnet 590 will kill their AM station in Toronto.  Someone from Corus, Rogers, Bell, Stingray should start "test driving" EV's and try streaming their stations, to get ready for the future.  Will they have adequate streaming infrastructure now and in the future?   I doubt that Julie Adams, at Rogers or the other GMs have any vision whatsoever.  They are going to be blindsided by this issue.

Rogers, Corus, Bell and stingray should seriously address the simulcast of their (remaining) AMs on HD-2, HD-3's because they have full power FM's in many markets, which will yield excellent AM alternative coverage today.   ?And then they have to promote the availability, on social media, websites and on-air.  Don't worry about "confusing" listeners with too much info, because once you've moved into an EV without AM Radio, you're lost as a listener unless you know how to receive their AM services on other platforms. I'm really pessmistic that the radio ownership groups in Canada have any vision vis-a-vis what's coming up very fast.

Last point, the CRTC and ISED's heads are up their asses when it comes to the issue of AM translators.  The success of FM translators in the U.S. is giving new life to some AM stations.  Not a complete cure of the problem, but it certainly works in many US markets.  The CRTC's "2 station" ownership cap for FM, - counting FM translators as one of the two stations companies are allowed to own, and the CRTC's reluctance to licence translators...needs to be addressed by the Federal Cabinet if AM is to survive.  A direction from the Governor in Council to the CRTC and to ISED to address this problem, including AM translators, could be a first start, but I suspect that this gov't is clueless.  They think that the cell phone warning system is adequate.  Rogers' 911 and emergency alerts outage should give them pause to address this problem. But I wouldn't count on Canadian MPs understanding the severity of this issue.

Last edited by tvguy (July 25, 2022 11:23 am)

 

July 25, 2022 11:15 am  #8


Re: The slow death of AM/FM radio in your car

Interesting thread…I got into radio in the sixties when AM was king and FM was a curiosity. My management career began with an assignment requiring turning a moribund FM into a market killer…we did it. I still had to take a huge interest in monster AMs like CJAD Montreal and CFRB Toronto, both of which needed a new trajectory going forward. Later in life, after a radio respite, I returned to do AM talk radio. I virtually never listened on the AM band…too noisy in a city like Toronto. But the simulcasts via FM HD channels provide studio sound. While there isn’t much left of decent AM radio (or radio generally), I always elect to listen on an HD channel and the sound is remarkable. Submarines require VLF (very low frequencies) to communicate underwater…maybe just re-assign ALL AM frequencies to that or (even better) just go silent. This turned out to be a 100 year industry. People now have many better ways to hear whatever they like without the inherent electrical sounds of passing streetcars. Get on with it! 

Last edited by shurmanator (July 25, 2022 11:15 am)

 

July 25, 2022 11:50 am  #9


Re: The slow death of AM/FM radio in your car

Actually I am glad we haven't gone the translator route for AM.  To me it is cumbersome, a waste of time, and jams up an already crowded FM dial.  Maybe in more isolated areas you could have some AM repeaters on FM, but is the audience there in these remote spots?  Probably not.   Better what was stated above with HD FM sub channels or streaming. Clear clean sound and puts AM on a better footing against the superior FM signals.  

 

July 25, 2022 12:08 pm  #10


Re: The slow death of AM/FM radio in your car

Curious whether anyone's "home" at CAB, WAB or OAB the 3 lobbyist groups - do the lobbyist organizations really care about the future of AM? or do their members? I recall Bayshore being rebuffed by the CRTC when they tried to get an FM repeater for CFOS, because they are on their night time pattern during early morning hours, in winter when reception is difficult - they were concerned about providing blizzard and severe weather warnings that few could hear.  CRTC said "nothing doing" you are capped at 2 FM's.

 

July 25, 2022 1:04 pm  #11


Re: The slow death of AM/FM radio in your car

Perhaps what's needed is a new category so that repeaters don't count as "new stations." Otherwise the big giants - like Rogers and Bell - may well try to take advantage of any loopholes in the rules and establish a new station on an already overburdened band. 

Think it can't happen? It already has, although neither of the giants was involved. I'm talking about CHIN Radio, which originally had just two frequencies in the city - 1540 AM and 100.7 FM. And then, a few years ago, the Lombardi family quietly asked the CRTC for a repeater on FM, complaining that the low power of 1540 AM in the early morning hours was keeping them from being heard properly in the DMA, causing its ethnic listeners to lose out.

So after a series of hearings, the station was granted 91.9 FM. It was meant to be strictly a repeater of the AM. But then the games began. After a while, the station started incorporating "new" shows on the frequency during the daytime, because, well - once they were back at 50K the problem of 1540 reception was solved. So why not have new programming there? Eventually, they were only simulcasting on FM after sunset.

And soon, that wasn't good enough, either. All of a sudden, 91.9 stopped rebroadcasting the AM signal altogether and became a third CHIN outlet, with all original programming 24 hours a day. Why didn't the CRTC step in on this flagrant violation of the agreement on which the licence was originally granted? Your guess is as good as mine, but in the end, for the past few years, CHIN has effectively given itself three radio stations in Toronto - two on FM, one on AM - despite the fact they argued the AM needed the help. 

If they can get away with it, what's to stop a Rogers or a Bell from pulling the same sneaky "it's a repeater of our AM, but then it's not" gambit? What a sleazy way to earn a new station in a crowded media city. Yet they got away with it and perhaps left the blueprint for others to follow. It stuck in my craw then (which is surprisingly already full) and remains so to this day.  

 

July 25, 2022 5:46 pm  #12


Re: The slow death of AM/FM radio in your car

The Lombardis did go through a CRTC application process to convert CHIN-1-FM 91.9 from a transmitter of CHIN 1540 into a separate license, back in 2017.

https://crtc.gc.ca/eng/archive/2017/2017-136.htm

 

July 25, 2022 5:54 pm  #13


Re: The slow death of AM/FM radio in your car

Yes, but I still think they got there under somewhat dubious circumstances. That was not the original reason for granting the licence and there's absolutely nothing to show that the poor AM signal that allowed it in the first place had mysteriously disappeared. False pretenses, I say, and I can't help but wonder if that was their plan all along and why the CRTC let them get away with it. 

 

July 26, 2022 9:33 am  #14


Re: The slow death of AM/FM radio in your car

 

July 26, 2022 10:23 am  #15


Re: The slow death of AM/FM radio in your car

Those were fairly interesting interventions and I tend to agree with those who filed them that this was not a good idea. But I've noticed that the CRTC tends to have a real blind spot when it comes to ethnic stations, and often allows them to get away with or grants requests for things no other commercial station in the market would be allowed to do. 

Unfortunately for the others, the Commission didn't listen and now suddenly those reception problems and serious concerns on the part of the station that kept 1540 from being heard after sundown no longer seem to be of interest for CHIN management and owners and they managed to wangle a third station and a precious Toronto FM frequency from out of nowhere. Funny how that worked out, huh?

 

July 26, 2022 11:38 pm  #16


Re: The slow death of AM/FM radio in your car

The key, I think (and I say this as a keen cross-border observer of CRTC doings) is that CHIN already *had* that "precious Toronto FM frequency." Because the 91.9 signal was already on the air as a CHIN(AM) relay, the frequency wasn't available for anyone else to use, no matter what, and so what CHIN decided to do with its programming got treated more as an internal Lombardi matter and less as a larger public concern worthy of a hearing, as it would have been had they applied for a new 91.9 signal that didn't yet exist.

My read of the decision also appears to say that CHIN was required to simulcast 1540 on 91.9 at night. That appears to no longer be the case, though, at least based on online schedules. (I can barely hear 1540 here in Rochester and of course can't get 91.9 at all!)

 

July 26, 2022 11:55 pm  #17


Re: The slow death of AM/FM radio in your car

I understand what you're saying, and you're right - once they got their mitts on 91.9, no one else could have it. But I still think they got that FM position under false pretenses.

I can't prove it, but I suspect they knew exactly what they're were going to do with 91.9 as soon as they were granted the repeater. The fact remains, to my knowledge, it is now 100% separate from 1540, with no simulcast at any time. 

So suddenly the AM station they were so concerned no one could hear at night is just abandoned and the urgency that got them the third frequency is just gone? Sounds pretty fishy to me. That's why I'm surprised the CRTC let them get away with it. They should have insisted it meet the requirements of its original licence - as a rebroadcast of CHIN-AM and nothing more. 

 

July 28, 2022 11:22 am  #18


Re: The slow death of AM/FM radio in your car

Was it something I said? I happened to tune into CHIN-FM's 91.9 signal on Thursday only to hear complete dead air. It's been that way for at least 15 minutes and possibly longer. Signal meter indicates there's carrier there but no audio. Not sure what happened, but it's one of the lengthier stretches of dead air I've heard in a long time.

Which brings up the question: can you actually hear dead air?

Update: As I type this, they official left the air. Nothing but noise on the frequency as of this posting and no signal at all. Their other stations (100.7 and 1540) are still on the air as usual. I wonder what happened?  (Stream is still online.)

Update to my update: carrier is back, still no audio. Only a radio fanatic would "listen" to dead air!

Final update: Back on at 12:01 PM - a very long outage.  

Last edited by RadioActive (July 28, 2022 12:03 pm)

 

November 23, 2022 9:15 am  #19


Re: The slow death of AM/FM radio in your car

radiokid wrote:

RadioActive wrote:

Interesting article and I've read the warnings before. But the fact remains I would not even consider a new car without AM in it. There is nothing on FM I'm remotely interested in and I can't see that changing. A dinosaur? Yes, I suppose I am and we know what happened to them. But at least I'm a loyal dinosaur and they're a rapidly vanishing breed, too. 

The other advantage to AM which can never be stressed enough is during an emergency, especially a power outage. I think back to Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans when 50K powerhouse WWL was the designated disaster station. All the other stations in the area, with only a few exceptions, simply rebroadcast WWL's signal. 

That was fine if you were in New Orleans proper. But if you were in the outlying areas or another parish, those FM and weaker AM signals couldn't get to you. But WWL could. For many, it was their only source of information when there was no electricity, no Internet and no cell phone service and the world as they knew it was ending around them.

I know AM can't be kept alive just for the occasional and thankfully rare disaster. But it sure is nice to have it when it happens. 

Until it's completely eliminated from every vehicle, I won't buy one or feel right without it. So while I may be a dinosaur, I'm not a Tyrannosaurus Rex. More like a nervous Rex! 

Sadly, I think AM's days are numbered, in analog form.    Electric cars have almost all dropped AM due to noise issues caused by the motors.   This really is concerning because so many broadcasters are sitting back and doing little with their AM stations to transition them to the future.    Once we hit the electric car date of (2035?)  this will be be end of AM unless some plan is put in place to transition these stations.    They also have just over 13 years to figure out how to get the market fully ready.    So far, they have done very little...    
 

Their solution appears to be: "if you really want AM, go through an app," as many here have suggested. Because so much of radio listening is done in cars, AM stations can't really afford to lose access to any more ears. But will people really use an app or just settle for FM? (The simulcast of AM on FM trend is great, but only if there's room on the dial. Toronto has absolutely zero space left on the band, unless the big corps. are willing to give up a music format to swap with an existing AM station. Highly unlikely.)

Will Electric Cars Kill AM Radio?

 

November 23, 2022 10:45 am  #20


Re: The slow death of AM/FM radio in your car

Cars in the future will include HD radio, which will have AM stations on an HD2, making actual AM obsolete.


RadioWiz & RadioQuiz are NOT the same person. 
RadioWiz & THE Wiz are NOT the same person.

 
 

November 23, 2022 11:24 am  #21


Re: The slow death of AM/FM radio in your car

Most new cars do feature HD Radio, but I've noticed that the stations themselves have pretty much stopped promoting it. (Remember the AM 640 ad that touted "streetcar wires" and telling listeners about their HD options? Now it's been altered to just talk about listening on their online feed. Not a single mention of HD.)

I believe CFRB is on a Virgin 99.9 HD channel. I don't think I've ever heard them refer to it. Those in the know, like you who care about radio, likely will take advantage. As for the rest of the public? I can't help but wonder if they don't know it's there, will they bother figuring it out and tuning it in? You can't look for something if you don't know it's there.

I like the HD option, but it seems to me most companies that own stations have given up on it. Which, in the end, may well be their loss. 

 

November 23, 2022 12:20 pm  #22


Re: The slow death of AM/FM radio in your car

I monitored 99.9 this morning.
CFRB is HD2
TSN 1050 is on HD3
"Iheart  the Holidays" xmas music (no longer country) is on HD4

As for making AM obsolete, perhaps if the CN Tower was the tx site for the big broadcasters.  But Rogers transmits its Toronto AM's on 92.5 from First Canadian Place with a highly directional antenna and under-powered signal.  HD coverage is poor in my experience once you get past White's Road going east, and in parts of Mississauga.  I don't think the 680 News or Sportsnet 590 HD signals carried as far as Holland Marsh to the North.  

Whether Rogers will invest in upgrading the master antenna at the CN tower is yet to be known.  Surely implementing HD on CHFI would provide excellent coverage for 680 and 590 on HD 2 and HD 3. 

BTW, FCC mandates that every U.S. station ID their HD signals on air.  So for example, KUSC Los Angeles will ID their HD1 at the "top of the hour".  Perhaps Mr. Fybush could shed some light on that.

I also hear U.S. HD2's identified within their programming streams - identifying the originating transmitter.  
 

 

November 23, 2022 12:25 pm  #23


Re: The slow death of AM/FM radio in your car

RadioActive wrote:

The simulcast of AM on FM trend is great, but only if there's room on the dial. Toronto has absolutely zero space left on the band, unless the big corps. are willing to give up a music format to swap with an existing AM station. Highly unlikely.)

When ownership limits are inevitably relaxed, then the AM to FM migration will kick in.