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May 14, 2021 5:03 pm  #1


Stupid Question #46: Why Can't They Expand The FM Band?

This is one of those probably really dumb questions but I know we have a few engineers who frequent here, and I'm sure they can answer it. A few years ago, space on the AM dial was freed up with the creation of the so-called "X"-band, (sounds like something out of Marvel Comics!) which extended the AM dial from 1600 to 1700. A host of new stations, including some in Toronto, applied and were given licences here to broadcast on 1610, 1640 and 1690, all of them ethnic stations. (If memory serves, those frequencies are specifically reserved for Canada, while Americans take the others.)

But with FM in the GTA literally jam packed and with no room to add almost anything else with a decent reach, is there any reason they couldn't expand the dial from 107.9 to 108.9? Or even 109.9? Think of the opportunities for either more variety on FM or even some AMs expanding their signals, like Moses Znaimer did with 96.7 - only there wouldn't be the need for lower power. (Obviously, new radios would be needed, but they did it for the X-band in cars, so in theory, it's possible.)

Is there a reason this couldn't be done? Is someone or something else using that part of the spectrum and if so, could a deal not be done to pay them off to move somewhere else, as in the recent TV repack? Or does that part of the dial simply not propagate well enough to be used? 

I know HD is sort of the new expanded FM, but it's not quite the same. I'd be curious about the answer and I'm sure someone here will know. They're obviously not the same animal, but if they can extend the AM band, why can't they do the same for FM? I'm guessing both the CRTC and the FCC would be deluged with applications if it ever happened. 

 

May 14, 2021 5:44 pm  #2


Re: Stupid Question #46: Why Can't They Expand The FM Band?

Not an engineer, but I "think" that outside that range you run in to interference with TV on VHF

 

May 14, 2021 6:21 pm  #3


Re: Stupid Question #46: Why Can't They Expand The FM Band?

The aviation band begins right at 108 MHz, and there's 75+ years of equipment in use that's using that band, not just in North America but globally. 

 

May 14, 2021 6:33 pm  #4


Re: Stupid Question #46: Why Can't They Expand The FM Band?

Technical details aside, anything that requires the purchase of new radios is DOA.

 

May 14, 2021 6:41 pm  #5


Re: Stupid Question #46: Why Can't They Expand The FM Band?

fybush wrote:

The aviation band begins right at 108 MHz, and there's 75+ years of equipment in use that's using that band, not just in North America but globally. 

I figured it was something like that. Expanding the other way - i.e. past 87.5 - probably won't work either. So I suppose it's HD or nothing.

     Thread Starter
 

May 14, 2021 6:54 pm  #6


Re: Stupid Question #46: Why Can't They Expand The FM Band?

It's kind of a solution in search of a problem.

Nobody's going to rush out to buy a radio to listen to NewsTalk 108.5, and realistically existing stations simulcasting for years would be the only way to make the transition -- in which case HD is functionally the same. A new, unique format couldn't sustain itself for years until (or, if) the technology is widely adopted.

 

May 14, 2021 6:57 pm  #7


Re: Stupid Question #46: Why Can't They Expand The FM Band?

Unfortunately there is no room on either side of the fm band.  Below 88 MHz is the low tv vhf band channel’s 2 - 6, which are back in use since the repack of tv.   Above 108 is the aviation band.  In fact, one of Pearson’s ILS approach frequencies, is just above the FM band at 110.95 MHz!

 

May 14, 2021 7:23 pm  #8


Re: Stupid Question #46: Why Can't They Expand The FM Band?

Juggie1 wrote:

Unfortunately there is no room on either side of the fm band. Below 88 MHz is the low tv vhf band channel’s 2 - 6, which are back in use since the repack of tv. Above 108 is the aviation band. In fact, one of Pearson’s ILS approach frequencies, is just above the FM band at 110.95 MHz!

OK, but what's their format? 

     Thread Starter
 

May 14, 2021 7:29 pm  #9


Re: Stupid Question #46: Why Can't They Expand The FM Band?

I hear that on the Aviation band, it's much easier to find "air" time
 


Cheers,
Jody Thornton
 
 

May 14, 2021 7:45 pm  #10


Re: Stupid Question #46: Why Can't They Expand The FM Band?

Coincidentally this just came up on my youtube recommendations


https://youtu.be/iOInofy6MOA

 

May 15, 2021 4:41 pm  #11


Re: Stupid Question #46: Why Can't They Expand The FM Band?

I found out from the mediumwave.info website just a few days ago that there's some AM radio stations in Brazil that are migrating to the FM band but below 88 MHz in the 77 and 84 MHz range! 
https://mediumwave.info/2021/05/07/brazil-2/

I do like the idea of expanding the FM below 88 MHz. If they can do it in Brazil then why not here in North America and the rest of the world? Would definitely be ideal for large cities like Toronto with such a jammed pack FM band!
 

Last edited by Scorpio42 (May 15, 2021 5:06 pm)

 

May 15, 2021 5:04 pm  #12


Re: Stupid Question #46: Why Can't They Expand The FM Band?

pinto wrote:

Not an engineer, but I "think" that outside that range you run in to interference with TV on VHF

A lot of the analog television stations had shutdown with only a few left still running in 2021 here and there in Canada. I think that once all the television stations are shutdown between channels 2 and 6 we shall see what the future will be for that section. There are some old multi-band radios even portable CD players that actually have a TV sound band that cover the 54-88 MHz range so it wouldn't be a bad idea to expand the FM band below 88 MHz rather than above 107.9 MHz where the aviation band is.

 

May 16, 2021 1:01 pm  #13


Re: Stupid Question #46: Why Can't They Expand The FM Band?

Unfortunately the most recent repack brought back vhf low tv channels in some areas of the United States.  This puts the move of fm below 88 almost impossible. 

I was involved with the Bell Media change of CFTO from 9 to 8 and saw the list of vhf channels that were being used across North America in the most recent repack and was surprised to see some locations reactivate the low vhf band again

Last edited by Juggie1 (May 16, 2021 1:02 pm)

 

May 16, 2021 1:28 pm  #14


Re: Stupid Question #46: Why Can't They Expand The FM Band?

In 2008, the FCC asked for public comment about turning the tv channels 5 and 6 into the fm band once that repack was finished.  This didn’t really go anywhere since then and with the most recent repack, it doesn’t look like it will happen.

 

May 18, 2021 1:12 pm  #15


Re: Stupid Question #46: Why Can't They Expand The FM Band?

Juggie1 wrote:

Unfortunately the most recent repack brought back vhf low tv channels in some areas of the United States. This puts the move of fm below 88 almost impossible.

I was involved with the Bell Media change of CFTO from 9 to 8 and saw the list of vhf channels that were being used across North America in the most recent repack and was surprised to see some locations reactivate the low vhf band again

Question on this - im guessing you worked up on the CN?  Is CFTO still using their old antenna from 76?