My clock radio has HD but no AM, so it's been useful since 680 is my preferred wakeup station.

CIRV HD is already on with the main plus 3 sub channels ( all ethnic). I should also point out that HD is really the only way to get The Grand ( outside of the internet stream) in this area but the signal is only as good as an HD lock on the KX station and drop outs are common, I am in Pickering. HD is better than an internet stream quality-wise,

Last edited by Fitz (January 12, 2019 6:13 pm)

I am quite impressed with this Directed HD radio. The main problem is the sameness of most of the programing.

I have been able to tune in all kinds of American FM stations with the RBDS information on most. Have been able to pick up stations from Rochester and even Erie Penn. Was able to pick up the oldies station from Peterborough on 96.7. The classic rock and community stations from Cobourg. My FM and Bob FM.

There's two area stations with FM translators and a sperate HD broadcast. That gives one a chance to compare the analog vs digital on the same radio and try and figure out the impact of digital compression ( granted that even the analog broadcast may be playing digital files). 

Below is a two min clip of  two stations. Each station has the HD for 30 secs and the analog FM translator. The first station is playing Fludd and the second Elton John. I won't say what comes first on each track, the digi or analog. WAV file not MP3.

Also the selectivity of the radio is good to be able to pick up both translators from where I live in Pickering.

Analog VS Digital

Last edited by Fitz (January 15, 2019 9:37 am)

CHUM FM will not be running HD any time soon, from what I hear. 
The balance of stations which broadcast from the CN Tower, will need to have an upgrade to the "Master FM" antenna.  This is not a simple matter, given the fact that so many stations are multiplexed into the 40-something year old antenna.  Not only a rebuild or replacement is envisioned, but that's a very big and expensive project.   Again, to my knowledge this is not proceeding at a fast pace.  This is a $$$$$ issue, and some of the CN tower operators may not have the appetite for a big expensive upgrade (thinking of Jazz FM, which is fiscally strapped)  Besides, Rogers has their AM's on HD-2 and HD-3 from FCP.   CKFM's operation in HD, is due to the fact that Bell has utilized an existing aperture on the tower (which they own) for their HD antenna.

At First Canadian Place, it's a whole different ball game.   At FCP, most stations "own" their own antennas, and there is adequate power at the site for most broadcasters to upgrade to HD operation. So, in 2019 we will likely see HD operation by CIND and Flow 93 (or whatever it's called these days).

https://www.americanradiohistory.com/CANADA/Archive-Broadcast-Technology/1975%2012-00%20-%20BET.pdf

The issue with HD, as I understand it, and perhaps some engineers can weigh in, is that the digital (HD) subcarriers add about 10% (additional RF) to the existing envelope of RF going into the antenna.   Across the FM band, at the CN Tower, that's a significant amount of additional RF into a very old antenna.  I had been told that the Master FM antenna, was "maxed out" in terms of the amount of RF that it can handle. (not just a combiner issue).   Consider that CHFI operates at 44 KW ERP, CBL-FM 38 kw ERP  and there are several other high power (grandfathered) Class C stations.   I also understand that a typical Nautel transmitter (HD) may consume more power than an older analog transmitter.  So there may be an electrical upgrade (plus standby power generation) required for all stations to transition to HD & HVAC upgrades.  My recollection is that the master antenna at the Empire State Building which was quite old, also required a major upgrade to transition NYC stations to HD.   I also understand that with CKFM (and initially for CHUM-FM), the RF for the HD digital subcarriers, is routed into a separate antenna, so the HD component by-passes the Master FM antenna. I recall that Scott Fybush did a comprehensive article of the NYC Empire State Building master antenna system a few years back.

One might speculate that from a status quo situation, various stations that use the Master FM antenna could reduce the Analog ERP, while adding HD Digital subcarriers, but that would impact their analog coverage, which no general manager would likely choose to do.  

here is an interesting article on the Empire State Building antenna rebuild - by Fybush:
https://www.radioworld.com/news-and-business/under-a-cocoon-esb-plans-for-new-fm-era
 

Last edited by tvguy (January 15, 2019 9:56 pm)

tvguy wrote:

The issue with HD, as I understand it, and perhaps some engineers can weigh in, is that the digital (HD) subcarriers add about 10% (additional RF) to the existing envelope of RF going into the antenna.   Across the FM band, at the CN Tower, that's a significant amount of additional RF into a very old antenna.  I had been told that the Master FM antenna, was "maxed out" in terms of the amount of RF that it can handle. (not just a combiner issue).   Consider that CHFI operates at 44 KW ERP, CBL-FM 38 kw ERP  and there are several other high power (grandfathered) Class C stations.   I also understand that a typical Nautel transmitter (HD) may consume more power than an older analog transmitter.  So there may be an electrical upgrade (plus standby power generation) required for all stations to transition to HD & HVAC upgrades.  My recollection is that the master antenna at the Empire State Building which was quite old, also required a major upgrade to transition NYC stations to HD.   I also understand that with CKFM (and initially for CHUM-FM), the RF for the HD digital subcarriers, is routed into a separate antenna, so the HD component by-passes the Master FM antenna. I recall that Scott Fybush did a comprehensive article of the NYC Empire State Building master antenna system a few years back.

One might speculate that from a status quo situation, various stations that use the Master FM antenna could reduce the Analog ERP, while adding HD Digital subcarriers, but that would impact their analog coverage, which no general manager would likely choose to do.  

here is an interesting article on the Empire State Building antenna rebuild - by Fybush:
https://www.radioworld.com/news-and-business/under-a-cocoon-esb-plans-for-new-fm-era
 

Looks like the CN Tower will be stuck doing analog unless this gets one day pushed as mandatory such as it did with tv.  Then you'll see the money being spent to get this all sorted.

Wasnt it not Bell that caused a fire in the mast in 2017 due to HD?  

Tim Brown 2016 wrote:

markow202 wrote:

Looks like the CN Tower will be stuck doing analog unless this gets one day pushed as mandatory such as it did with tv.  Then you'll see the money being spent to get this all sorted.

Wasnt it not Bell that caused a fire in the mast in 2017 due to HD?  

I confess, it doesn't look promising based on tvguy's insights. Nevertheless, at some point the Master FM antenna will start to fail due to age. The fact it's had a fair degree of protection from the elements because of the radome will perhaps delay the need to replace it by several years.
?

If it hasn't failed by now, it will be fine.  Besides, I believe the transmitters more of an issue on failing last time I saw a Fybush article of 2015 all transmitters seem brand new.  

https://www.fybush.com/site-20150529/ 

There is no good reason for Bell to put HD on more than one FM in each market.

I don't see it on CKLH either as CHAM and CKOC are just syndication clearing houses.

CHRE makes sense; maybe they'll be next.

I had heard, that someone in "programming" at Bell, did not "like" the coverage of CHUM-FM in the fringe areas, when it operated with HD, hence when HD operations were restored, only CKFM operated in HD - because it is the lesser of the two stations in terms of ratings/revenues.  There was no sound basis from an engineering standpoint for coming to this conclusion.  There is some possibility that when the Master FM antenna is upgraded, which is taking a long time, due to covid and likely financial pressures on the tenants,  you will see a number of stations from CN tower upgrade.  In a matter of weeks, look for HD on CJKX 95.9 in downtown toronto.   They have been approved for HD operation for the repeater which is on First Cdn Place and the equipment may have been installed.  Right now, the downtown repeater is analog only and nulls out the HD subcarriers from Durham region on the frequency.

tvguy wrote:

In a matter of weeks, look for HD on CJKX 95.9 in downtown toronto.   They have been approved for HD operation for the repeater which is on First Cdn Place and the equipment may have been installed.  Right now, the downtown repeater is analog only and nulls out the HD subcarriers from Durham region on the frequency.

That one's interesting, as I find the analog/analog transition from the Oshawa signal to the Toronto signal imperfect, specifically once you get on the DVP. Will this help?

And again, I don't know of a single cluster in the country that has more than one of its FMs on HD, and for the most part it's not due to technical limitations. There is next to no consumer awareness of the technology, and I see no sign that it will be used as anything but a band-aid to help in-cluster AMs.
 

Biggest issue with FCP is Safety Code 6!   With the current load of rf stations including tv, fm, and communications companies, the rf level is at or just below the level where power reductions would start happening.  Adding stations up there would further reduce the current power levels of existing stations and may even mean that the top floors may not be useable.

Also, FCP is just under 1000 feet and the CN master fm antenna is just under 1600 feet up!   That height difference means much better reach at a much lower power level and a big hydro savings!   Also lower maintenance costs at CN tower as only one antenna system to maintain.   FCP would have to either spend lots of money for a common antenna system or each station would have to put big filters in to prevent reradiation issues!

Last edited by Juggie1 (June 16, 2021 6:45 pm)

markow202 wrote:

FCP was never as good as CN but yes that could be due to power.  I think that roof would also be super jammed if this occured.  CN is still the tallest over the entire city. but, good analogy I thought about this once.

Why is the CN Tower a less desirable place?

"Less desirable" only for FM's in terms of the physical location of the tower, as well as the limited space and ease to replace the Master FM systems. 

A bit of firsthand knowledge.  A couple of things about FCP vs Master FM..  First, the Master FM at CN Tower was (originally) designed for omni-directional stations. Most of the stations in the early 70's were relatively grandfathered, in terms of their coverage - case in point CKFM, CHFI and CHUM FM.   CKFM, if memory serves me correctly was over 210 kw at the old CIBC building - and omni directional.  It's last "home" was on the "new" CIBC building at a relatively high power and omni-directional.   CHFI was at an even higher power from the CFTO tower in Agincourt.  So when they moved to CN Tower the Class "C" grandfathered stations were around 40 KW on Master FM.  CHIN FM was at a lower power because it is "B" class.  The Department of Transport (later ISED) wanted all Toronto area TV and FM stations to be clustered at one point.  When CKO came on the air, - which required a directional antenna at 99.1, it operated from FCP and various other stations followed. Many were licesned after the CN Tower master FM was built.    My recollection was that the CN Tower went into operation in 76, but the Master FM antenna was designed months or a couple of years before it was installed up there.  Antenna installation(s) took place in '75.

One other odd recollection.  I remember going up to the roof level of the "new" CIBC building when I worked at CKFM.  (before the windows were installed within the building) I took a portable TV up there and did some TV DXing.  This was when the CKFM antenna was being installed and the building was under construction.  That's a long time ago, a number of years before the CN tower went into operation.

 Most of the stations at FCP have highly directional antennas to protect U.S. and other Canadian stations on the same or adjacent frequencies.  Several were "drop in" frequencies - like 88,9 CIRV which originally operated at 88.7 (WBFO's frequency) and the arboriginal radio station on 106.5 (WYRK Buffalo).  (Classical) 96.3 "relocated" from an office tower in Mississauga and is directional to protect 96.1 Buffalo (formerly WJYE).   Other stations have literally been shoe-horned into the site, with specially designed antennas - i.e. 96.7 CFZM-FM-1. There have already been major changes to several FM antennas at FCP due to Safety Code 6 problems.  The problems included high levels of radiation over cooling towers on the roof. Several stations were required to re-design their antennas, to throw less RF onto the rooftop.  This antenna work occurred in May 2009 and included CFMZ, CBLA-FM and CJBC-FM.  There were some other Safety Code 6 issues when the outside (granite) cladding started falling from the face of the building.  There was a multi-year project whereby sidecars of workers (in side cars) were slung over the side of the building.  RF levels had to be reduced for some stations (that over and above the antenna design changes).  I believe that RF levels were reduced on "working" nights to accommodate the crews on the rooftop.  Every addition of an HD signal notches up RF levels a few hundred (or thousand) watts.  My recollection is that some prospective tenants proposed adding height to one or more of the towers, so that rooftop level RF could be reduced, or at least the stations requiring power increases, would not add to the RF at rooftop level.  Bottom line, FCP is basically "maxed out".  The remaining TV transmitters, which I believe are standby/auxiliary to the CN Tower (main) UHF transmitters, have not added to the SC6 problems.  This has been an FM issue, primarily.  I think that had Evanov been granted changes for Proud FM or CIDC at FCP, there would have been some significant power reductions that would have been required of incumbent stations.  The evanov applications were turned down on multiple occasions.  Skywave a big yellow board contributor may have additional first-hand knowledge.  FCP is also a very expensive place to do business. It is to my knowledge the only antenna site in the world, where the landlord charges an excess fee to stations for each HD subchannel that they use, after the main HD channel.   That surcharge works out to be around 10% of the cost to transmit from the building.   So, for example if the site rental fees were $160K per year for the main signal, the HD-2 would cost an additional $16K , plus some additional nickel-and-dime fees, including additional costs for the hockey-puck sized GPS antenna which is needed for HD operation.  To my knowledge there aren't similar HD2, HD3 etc costs anywhere in North America - by other landlords.  An FM station with 3 HD signals will be pushing $200K per annum, plus additional fees for standby generator, and other sundry costs imposed by Brookfield.   Clearly if you're operating an omni-directional station, CN Tower is a better location, particularly the "business" environment.  The building management at FCP has if I can use a phrase "take no prisoners" negotiating tactics.  And of course they have a number of tenants who couldn't relocate at any cost that would make business sense vs. the annual increases in costs charged by Brookfield.

Last edited by tvguy (June 17, 2021 3:44 pm)