The Southern Ontario/WNY Radio-TV Forum » Shock In San Fran As Pioneering Radio Station Disappears After 80 Yrs.

RadioActive · October 6, 2022 7:36 pm

If you're a radio fan and into DX, you've probably heard the call letters KGO. It's a San Francisco AM institution that not only had a talk format for decades, but claims to have coined the term "Newstalk" and even tried to have it copyrighted.

At one time, it was the leading station in the Northern California city. The station has seen its fortunes sink in recent years, a come down even worse than Toronto's CFRB, which was also once #1 forever.

On Thursday, KGO suddenly interrupted its morning show with a pre-recorded loop announcement playing snippets of songs about money and gambling and telling listeners that after 80 years, the station would no longer exist come Monday.

It's all stunting, of course, and there are reports that this one time powerhouse that set the political agenda for an entire city will return with an all-sports betting and gambling format.

Needless to say, the reaction on Twitter was instantaneous, with hundreds of angry now-former listeners vowing never to turn on the 810 AM signal ever again.

This isn't a local story but it is an intriguing one. If a station that had that much influence can turn itself into what is essentially an infomercial for gambling, it's just another indication of the sad state of not only AM radio, but radio in general. It is a media earthquake in a city that's all too used to the real kind.

KGO's 50K signal can be heard in dozens of states and in many parts of western Canada.

While the new format hasn't been officially confirmed, it appears that for now, at least, all bets are off.

And on Monday, apparently back on.

KGO radio says ‘goodbye’ ahead of format change

Chrisphen · October 6, 2022 8:08 pm

They called for the assassination of George Moscone?

Jody Thornton · October 6, 2022 8:16 pm

So when the sales team refers to sales rates and dayparts, are these also referenced as "cards" and "slots"?

RadioAaron · October 6, 2022 8:51 pm

The audio of the change is just brutal. What an awful way to end such a huge station.

https://formatchangearchive.com/kgo-abruptly-signs-off/

RadioActive · October 6, 2022 9:32 pm

It sounds like it caught the morning show hosts by total surprise. I hate when companies like Cumulus do that, although I understand why - they don't want the talent to say anything on air they might regret. But it's pretty low to just suddenly cut into a show and have the hosts realize, that's it, you're done. And don't let the studio door hit you on the way out.

Tomas Barlow · October 6, 2022 10:28 pm

A sports betting talk format in a state where sports betting is illegal.

Brilliant.

paterson1 · October 7, 2022 2:35 pm

A contributor (PictureForYourEars) on RadioWest.ca mentioned that sports betting is one of the propositions that Californians will be voting on in November. However he mentioned that so far there has been a fair bit of opposition so it is not a done deal. If in fact sports betting is the format change for Monday and not something else KGO may be in a difficult position, as Tomas points out.

Last rating KGO had a 1.7 share and is tied with sister station KFSO AM which is also news/talk but KFSO is not local and all syndicated talk. KCBS AM which is all news, is the second highest rated station in San Francisco with a 6.4 share.

mace · October 8, 2022 7:21 am

Currently, Sports formatted KNBR is tied for 7th in the Bay area with a 3.6 share. The station currently holds the radio broadcast rights to the baseball Giants and football 49ers. If KGO goes the sports betting format route, they will be as competitive to 680 as 1520 is to 550 in Buffalo.

RadioAaron · October 8, 2022 10:49 am

mace wrote:
Currently, Sports formatted KNBR is tied for 7th in the Bay area with a 3.6 share. The station currently holds the radio broadcast rights to the baseball Giants and football 49ers. If KGO goes the sports betting format route, they will be as competitive to 680 as 1520 is to 550 in Buffalo.

It’s sort of apples and oranges as ratings aren’t the goal

RadioActive · October 9, 2022 1:57 pm

As suspected, the final host on KGO never even got the chance to say goodbye to his audience.

“I was told right before I went on that it was coming,” Mark Thompson told SFGATE. “I was saddened by the fact that they didn’t want me to say goodbye to the audience.”

Several sources are saying the station will return to the air Monday with the predicted sports gambling format, calling itself "The Spread 810AM."

I wonder what the odds are of this thing attracting any ears at all? 50,000 wasted watts.

KGO Host ‘Saddened’ That He Couldn’t Say Goodbye

RadioAaron · October 9, 2022 8:40 pm

RadioActive wrote:
I wonder what the odds are of this thing attracting any ears at all? 50,000 wasted watts.

They've found a way to squeeze the last few dollars out of a band that's on hospice.

Tomas Barlow · October 10, 2022 5:13 am

RadioAaron wrote:
RadioActive wrote:
I wonder what the odds are of this thing attracting any ears at all? 50,000 wasted watts.
They've found a way to squeeze the last few dollars out of a band that's on hospice.

Many of the top rated stations in the US are still on AM and 4 of the top 10 billing stations in the US are still on AM.

RadioAaron · October 10, 2022 7:30 pm

Tomas Barlow wrote:
RadioAaron wrote:
RadioActive wrote:
I wonder what the odds are of this thing attracting any ears at all? 50,000 wasted watts.
They've found a way to squeeze the last few dollars out of a band that's on hospice.
Many of the top rated stations in the US are still on AM and 4 of the top 10 billing stations in the US are still on AM.

1010 WINS today announced a move to FM. KNX LA and WBBM Chicago are already there. Virtually nobody under 60 is listening. It's over.

mace · October 10, 2022 9:14 pm

RadioAaron wrote:
Tomas Barlow wrote:
RadioAaron wrote:

They've found a way to squeeze the last few dollars out of a band that's on hospice.
Many of the top rated stations in the US are still on AM and 4 of the top 10 billing stations in the US are still on AM.
1010 WINS today announced a move to FM. KNX LA and WBBM Chicago are already there. Virtually nobody under 60 is listening. It's over.

These stations have not moved to FM. They have simply added an FM frequency to simulcast their AM signal.

Tomas Barlow · October 10, 2022 11:28 pm

mace wrote:
RadioAaron wrote:
Tomas Barlow wrote:

Many of the top rated stations in the US are still on AM and 4 of the top 10 billing stations in the US are still on AM.
1010 WINS today announced a move to FM. KNX LA and WBBM Chicago are already there. Virtually nobody under 60 is listening. It's over.
These stations have not moved to FM. They have simply added an FM frequency to simulcast their AM signal.

1010 WINS made $29 million last year on AM.
WBBM made $29.7 million on AM with a 4100 watt FM repeater.
But as you said, it's over for them.

MJ Vancouver · October 11, 2022 12:01 am

mace wrote:
RadioAaron wrote:
Tomas Barlow wrote:
Many of the top rated stations in the US are still on AM and 4 of the top 10 billing stations in the US are still on AM.
1010 WINS today announced a move to FM. KNX LA and WBBM Chicago are already there. Virtually nobody under 60 is listening. It's over.
These stations have not moved to FM. They have simply added an FM frequency to simulcast their AM signal.

I’ve noticed it becoming increasingly common for AM news/talk stations in the US to either simulcast on FM or move to FM - there are a few examples on the west coast including KIRO Seattle (now on FM only), KNWN Seattle (formerly KOMO, on both AM and FM now), and KXL Portland, Oregon (now on FM only). Yet aside from CBC, CityNews Ottawa, French-language CHMP in Montreal, and CJNI Halifax (which signed on as an FM), news/talk hasn’t been moving to FM as quickly in Canada. You’re not seeing FM simulcasts or migrations with the likes of CFRB, CKNW or CHED.

Last edited by MJ Vancouver (October 11, 2022 12:03 am)

Dial Twister · October 11, 2022 1:52 pm

Tomas Barlow wrote:
1010 WINS made $29 million last year on AM.
WBBM made $29.7 million on AM with a 4100 watt FM repeater.
But as you said, it's over for them.

And them thar are United States dollars too.

RadioAaron · October 11, 2022 5:33 pm

mace wrote:
RadioAaron wrote:
Tomas Barlow wrote:
Many of the top rated stations in the US are still on AM and 4 of the top 10 billing stations in the US are still on AM.
1010 WINS today announced a move to FM. KNX LA and WBBM Chicago are already there. Virtually nobody under 60 is listening. It's over.
These stations have not moved to FM. They have simply added an FM frequency to simulcast their AM signal.

And this is what an "added" frequency looks like. The AM not even acknowledged. Yes, a SMALL handful of AM stations billed well, but they're in the minority.

It's not over for those stations, but it's over for the band.

Last edited by RadioAaron (October 11, 2022 5:35 pm)

RadioAaron · October 11, 2022 5:42 pm

Tomas Barlow wrote:
WBBM made $29.7 million on AM with a 4100 watt FM repeater.

4100 watts on FM is better than 100,000 watts on AM. Coverage maps are irrelevant. AM isn't useable outside of cars in major cities. You might as well be talking about Shortwave.

I couldn't listen to AM in Toronto if I wanted to. It's all noise in my condo, and my new car doesn't even have the band, and it's not an EV.

RadioActive · October 11, 2022 7:55 pm

MJ Vancouver wrote:
mace wrote:
RadioAaron wrote:
1010 WINS today announced a move to FM. KNX LA and WBBM Chicago are already there. Virtually nobody under 60 is listening. It's over.
These stations have not moved to FM. They have simply added an FM frequency to simulcast their AM signal.
I’ve noticed it becoming increasingly common for AM news/talk stations in the US to either simulcast on FM or move to FM - there are a few examples on the west coast including KIRO Seattle (now on FM only), KNWN Seattle (formerly KOMO, on both AM and FM now), and KXL Portland, Oregon (now on FM only). Yet aside from CBC, CityNews Ottawa, French-language CHMP in Montreal, and CJNI Halifax (which signed on as an FM), news/talk hasn’t been moving to FM as quickly in Canada. You’re not seeing FM simulcasts or migrations with the likes of CFRB, CKNW or CHED.

One of the reasons, at least in the GTA, may be that there's simply no room for a repeater on the band here. So unless a Bell, Rogers or Corus is willing to give up one of its music formats, which seems unlikely, I doubt we'll ever hear CFTR or CFRB on FM, beyond HD.

RadioAaron is right about one thing, though - as soon as a station gets that precious FM space, they instantly stop talking about their AM signal. WFAN in New York always promotes itself as 101.9 first - and then 660 AM, despite its 50K signal. KNX, as he noted, does the same.

Even Moses Znaimer's AM740 constantly mentions its weaker 96.7 "downtown Toronto" signal first in its IDs. And if you can get CKDO Oshawa, they'll be sure to remind you to tune in on 107.7 first, before getting around to that pesky 1580 signal. WECK in Buffalo has three FM repeaters. All take precedence over the original and much weaker 1230 AM signal. As Bruce Hornsby once noted, "That's just the way it is."

I happen to like AM, not because of the actual band. It's just where the formats I prefer live. If they did it on FM, you bet I'd tune in there. Well, that plus, I love the long-distance element of AM DX that you almost never get on FM.

paterson1 · October 11, 2022 9:00 pm

So there are no places on the FM dial in Toronto for even a low power repeater? Newstalk 1010 could never have a 50 or 100 watt rebroadcaster downtown or anywhere else in Toronto where the AM signal is poor? I know there is nothing left for a regular new FM outlet but I am surprised low powered rebroadcasters are not available as well. I thought I read somewhere that Stingray's CFXJ 93.5 was going to apply for a couple of rebroadcasters.

RadioActive · October 11, 2022 9:41 pm

I doubt the low power FM repeaters would be worth it for the companies involved, with such a limited range.

But even if they were to be considered, which frequencies would you suggest they occupy that would be a) available in the GTA and b) would not cause interference with existing stations? I suggest that there simply aren't any where this would work and if they tried it, it would be so plagued by problems, it wouldn't be worth the money to even try.

But there are plenty of engineers on SOWNY. I'd be curious to hear what they think.

RadioActive · October 11, 2022 9:48 pm

Back to the original thread, and yes, the rumours were true. "The Spread 810 AM" made its official debut on Monday, much to the dismay of many former KGO listeners. And those who once called it home note the place was very poorly run once the new owner took over.

"Cumulus was notoriously cheap," says Pat Thurston, a KGO host...Thurston and other staff members who participated in a Twitter group chat on Monday recalled their fruitless pleas for the company to invest in marketing and build up its advertising staff.

The schedule changed from local talk 24/7 to infomercials on weekends. Thurston was told by an executive that the parent considered infomercials a "cash cow"; the manager told her that there was even some consideration given to making KGO an all-infomercial, all-the-time station.

"We could make a lot of money doing infomercials," he said, "and it would be the easiest way to do it..."

KGO's new listeners will be plied with syndicated sports programs, including such hosts as the notable blowhard Jim Rome — who already reached Bay Area listeners via KNBR — and eight hours of sports betting tips every weekday.

"It's a damn, dirty shame," Thurston says. "KGO is a legacy radio station and it didn't have to happen like this."

An abrupt format change at a beloved Bay Area station shows what's wrong with the radio business

paterson1 · October 11, 2022 10:32 pm

RadioActive wrote:
I doubt the low power FM repeaters would be worth it for the companies involved, with such a limited range.

But even if they were to be considered, which frequencies would you suggest they occupy that would be a) available in the GTA and b) would not cause interference with existing stations? I suggest that there simply aren't any where this would work and if they tried it, it would be so plagued by problems, it wouldn't be worth the money to even try.

But there are plenty of engineers on SOWNY. I'd be curious to hear what they think.

I have no recommendation for any frequencies since the technical side is not my bailiwick. I always thought there were still low power possibilities in the GTA. Stations in large US cities seem to use low power FM rebroadcasters (translators) all the time for AM stations with some success. This is something that hasn't been done much here, and has had little interest.

RadioActive · October 11, 2022 11:30 pm

I would love to see it (hear it?) but as noted, I can't think of an open spot where anything could be put that would be of any real use. There is a station at almost every place on the dial and where they're not, there's almost always one directly adjacent that might be interfered with.

I can't speak for other cities or markets, but there's no question Toronto has one of the most crowded FM dials I've ever seen.

RadioActive · November 9, 2022 10:44 am

paterson1 wrote:
A contributor (PictureForYourEars) on RadioWest.ca mentioned that sports betting is one of the propositions that Californians will be voting on in November. However he mentioned that so far there has been a fair bit of opposition so it is not a done deal. If in fact sports betting is the format change for Monday and not something else KGO may be in a difficult position, as Tomas points out.

Last rating KGO had a 1.7 share and is tied with sister station KFSO AM which is also news/talk but KFSO is not local and all syndicated talk. KCBS AM which is all news, is the second highest rated station in San Francisco with a 6.4 share.

And that proposition is now done - and it died. So while all bets are off, this 50K blowtorch heritage station is stuck with a format in a place where the kind of wagering they discuss for 24 hours straight isn't legal - and won't be any time in the near future. So what happens to this station next if the very thing it promotes can't be done in the city it serves? Perhaps it will put the "Go" into KGO.

Big Bet A Bust In Bid To Allow Sports Gambling In California