The Southern Ontario/WNY Radio-TV Forum / The Null Points Of HD Radio

**Posted by RadioActive** **Online!** November 17, 2024 12:14 pm

I know HD radio signals are fragile, but lately it seems there are a growing number of places where they simply fade into silence - even though you can still get the FM station they're piggybacked on clearly.

I experienced this recently with AM640's HD signal on CING-FM, which comes in fairly strong in Toronto. There's a small area near the Promenade Mall in Thornhill where what is normally good reception simply fades into silence. It's not a long stretch but it always makes me wonder why it happens there - and only there.

The HD signals for The Grand 92.9 (94.7-HD3) and CKDO (95.9-HD-3) are terrible for this, depending on what part of the city you're in. You can be listening to a song one second and it completely disappears for a while the next. Something about the geography of the area and the fact it's a more distant signal seems to be to blame.

It reminds me of the days when you'd go beneath an underpass or a tunnel and lose your AM station until you emerged. And It's the weakness of HD Radio and perhaps just one more reason it's failed to take off as radio execs. once hoped. ("Listen online" promos have almost completely replaced it in on-air mentions, instead.)

I like the HD quality of an AM station. But sometimes getting there - and getting it - isn't half the fun.

**Posted by Marc1178** November 17, 2024 12:38 pm

HD Radio is too low powered compared to regular FM to have good coverage. WOMC Detroit easily exceeds 120 km on regular FM when you head towards London on the 402. The HD signal starts breaking up right in Sarnia which is about 80 km from Ferndale, Michigan.

**Posted by RadioAaron** November 17, 2024 1:06 pm

Yes, it works great for actual local stations, which none of those are. (95.9 may have been coming from their downtown pea-shooter, but what's the HD power of that? 10 watts?)

**Posted by haydenmatthews14** November 17, 2024 1:33 pm

What about Z103.5's HD signal? Is it terrible while in the Downtown Core of Toronto?

**Posted by RadioAaron** November 17, 2024 1:56 pm

haydenmatthews14 wrote:
What about Z103.5's HD signal? Is it terrible while in the Downtown Core of Toronto?

My personal experience with it is that it's great. I can only reliably listen to Z at home on an HD radio.

**Posted by RadioActive** **Online!** November 17, 2024 2:32 pm

RadioAaron wrote:
Yes, it works great for actual local stations, which none of those are. (95.9 may have been coming from their downtown pea-shooter, but what's the HD power of that? 10 watts?)

The odd thing is that AM640's HD signal is usually very stable and comes in well almost everywhere I go in the upper part of North York and Thornhill. There's only that half a block driving up Bathurst towards Centre St. near the Mall where it disappears. Otherwise, it's almost always fine.

**Posted by Evuguy** November 18, 2024 10:04 pm

I could see 94.7 being very spotty around Toronto due to adjacent’ s 94.9 Oshawa and 94.5 Buffalo. RA, I suspect your radio is leaning more towards 94.5 to decode the CHKX HD signal as WNED is much weaker. Still some interference though as WNED also uses HD, so they compete for the same slice of spectrum. For 95.9, a bit harder to say where the issue is, other than the HD synchronous repeater on the FCP that might end up impairing the HD signal overall. For example, where I live, the 95.9 analog signal suffers a lot of multipath distortion as the FCP and Lake Ridge signals are about equal in strength. Oddly, Durham Radio is the only broadcaster I know of that likes to create situations of potential interference with its own signals.

As for CING 95.3, other than for some local interference in that particular area you were in, I'm not sure. There’s nothing within 80 miles on either adjacent.

**Posted by RadioActive** **Online!** November 18, 2024 10:10 pm

I think you're right, and I know both The Grand and CKDO's piggyback signals are fragile, but since I can't get them any other way in any real quality, (the AM on 1580 is noisy and distant and their FM repeater is non-existent) it's HD or nothing. And too often, it's nothing.

The 640 on HD is a strange one, because that's really the only place where I've driven since getting this HD-equipped car where CFIQ's signal simply disappears. It's a very short stretch and then it pops right back in.

**Posted by Evuguy** November 19, 2024 10:18 pm

Ok. I find CKDO's 1580 AM signal decent within Toronto, unless you are driving near a noisy power line. The 107.7 FM repeater (also from the Lake Ridge tower with 95.9) is highly directional and only starts to become listenable in east Scarborough. Pretty solid through south Durham though. Guessing they have to protect the adjacent 107.9's operating in Burlington and Cobourg, as well as 107.5 in Barrie.

**Posted by radiokid** November 19, 2024 11:05 pm

CING is on CHCH's tower... They moved to the new one, but ever sense I find their signal is no where near as good as it use to be in parts of Toronto. This means HD has become spotty in some areas. Really was a downgrade for 95.3 from my experience.

With HD now available on the CN tower, it would be nice to see Corus join the rest and put HD on their signals, and move 640 there.

**Posted by haydenmatthews14** November 20, 2024 12:06 am

I know for a fact that CIHR 104.7 from Woodstock. Their transmitter tower is located on a side road just outside of Woodstock. I am not sure if they use the same tower as 103.9 or they use their own. Sometimes their HD signal is spotty at times but if you are in Woodstock it's not bad.

**Posted by RadioAaron** November 20, 2024 8:42 am

radiokid wrote:
CING is on CHCH's tower... They moved to the new one, but ever sense I find their signal is no where near as good as it use to be in parts of Toronto. This means HD has become spotty in some areas. Really was a downgrade for 95.3 from my experience.

With HD now available on the CN tower, it would be nice to see Corus join the rest and put HD on their signals, and move 640 there.

It would be nice, but they won't do it.

**Posted by Leslieville Bill** November 20, 2024 9:52 am

It's like digital TV; either the signal is there or it's not. I prefer that to holding the antenna for my Dad so he could watch the Leaf's game.

**Posted by mace** November 20, 2024 10:11 am

Leslieville Bill wrote:
It's like digital TV; either the signal is there or it's not. I prefer that to holding the antenna for my Dad so he could watch the Leaf's game.

If you had an outdoor antenna, holding it so your dad could watch the Leaf game would not be required.

**Posted by Leslieville Bill** November 20, 2024 10:14 am

I have no idea then why he made me climb up there.

Last edited by Leslieville Bill (November 20, 2024 10:14 am)

**Posted by darcyh** November 20, 2024 12:39 pm

The HD signal component is only about a tenth of the analog signal's power. As such it does not have nearly the range of the 'parent' or analog signal. There are technical reasons the HD signal ratio cannot be increased, probably due to the bandwidth and or deviation of the signal. The HD channels are generally fine in an urban area but drop out as you get further from the transmitter.

**Posted by haydenmatthews14** November 20, 2024 2:52 pm

radiokid wrote:
CING is on CHCH's tower... They moved to the new one, but ever sense I find their signal is no where near as good as it use to be in parts of Toronto. This means HD has become spotty in some areas. Really was a downgrade for 95.3 from my experience.

With HD now available on the CN tower, it would be nice to see Corus join the rest and put HD on their signals, and move 640 there.

I am surprised that their signal is at 100,000 watts. It should cover Toronto, Niagara Falls and some parts of WNY very well. I doubt that Corus might put HD on 102.1 and 107.1. Also do you think that any of the London radio stations might go in HD at some point? There is no HD stations in London at the moment.

**Posted by LOSat** November 20, 2024 3:12 pm

None in London proper but Heart FM out Woodstock has an HD signal. Not sure if Woodstock is considered part of the London market for ratings purposes.

**Posted by darcyh** November 21, 2024 12:50 pm

Not sure it is worth spending the money to upgrade the transmitter to deliver HD programming unless the content already exists; with respect to the London market, CFPL AM 980 could be added to FM 96's signal. But at the end of the day will it get them any more listeners?

**Posted by haydenmatthews14** November 21, 2024 5:12 pm

darcyh wrote:
Not sure it is worth spending the money to upgrade the transmitter to deliver HD programming unless the content already exists; with respect to the London market, CFPL AM 980 could be added to FM 96's signal. But at the end of the day will it get them any more listeners?

I know during the OHL season they air the Knights games on 980 CFPL during evenings and Jays games during the Spring/Summer season. I think it would make sense for 95.9 to go HD and add 980 AM to their HD2 sub channel. After all their call sign is the same as 980.

Last edited by haydenmatthews14 (November 21, 2024 5:13 pm)

**Posted by TheWiz** November 21, 2024 5:37 pm

The Canadian radio industry has done a terrible job at promoting that HD exists. Last year, I showed my friend how HD in his car worked, he had no idea it was even there.

It's much more prevalent in the US, many stations promote their HD offering in their hourly Legal ID.

At the end of the day, I feel HD radio is going to fizzle out, just like AM stereo in the 80's and DAB in the 90's. Streaming is much more cost effective and widely known about.

**Posted by radiokid** November 21, 2024 5:47 pm

RadioAaron wrote:
It would be nice, but they won't do it.

They are currently the only major broadcaster on the CN tower NOT doing it. (outside CBC Music perhaps)

I get their financial situation limits their ability to buy new equipment... but there is no longer the technical limitation, as the master antenna system is now able to run HD.

CHIN, Stingray, Bell, Rogers are currently all running HD on all of their signals.

If the day comes and they replace their old equipment, I can see this happening.

Last edited by radiokid (November 21, 2024 5:47 pm)

**Posted by radiokid** November 21, 2024 5:52 pm

darcyh wrote:
Not sure it is worth spending the money to upgrade the transmitter to deliver HD programming unless the content already exists; with respect to the London market, CFPL AM 980 could be added to FM 96's signal. But at the end of the day will it get them any more listeners?

The issue is more as people get new cars... will they have AM in them to ensure CFPL-AM can be heard? Adding HD to CFPL-FM could get them around this. Transmitters don't last forever. The time to replace them is likely a good time to add HD features if you can. Saying that, you also need to promo it.. and as others have said... Canada has done poorly promoting it. People who have it and know, normally admit listening to it over the AM signal if that's what is put on it. I also think Durham sees a point with their WAVE brand.

Last edited by radiokid (November 21, 2024 5:53 pm)

**Posted by RadioActive** **Online!** November 21, 2024 5:53 pm

TheWiz wrote:
The Canadian radio industry has done a terrible job at promoting that HD exists. Last year, I showed my friend how HD in his car worked, he had no idea it was even there.

It's much more prevalent in the US, many stations promote their HD offering in their hourly Legal ID.

At the end of the day, I feel HD radio is going to fizzle out, just like AM stereo in the 80's and DAB in the 90's. Streaming is much more cost effective and widely known about.

100% agree. It has, indeed, become almost the DAB of the modern era. Lots of hype at the start and then it's barely mentioned. Let's hope it doesn't disappear like DAB did. (Or as I used to like to say in those post Brylcreem-days "A little DAB won't do ya.")

Despite the occasional HD fade out, the sound of AM on FM is excellent. I wish more stations would promote it. Like you, I had a friend who'd been driving a relatively new car. I once asked him if he HD in it. He admitted he had no idea. This is the broadcast industry's fault for not telling people it exists.

**Posted by radiokid** November 21, 2024 5:59 pm

haydenmatthews14 wrote:
I know for a fact that CIHR 104.7 from Woodstock. Their transmitter tower is located on a side road just outside of Woodstock. I am not sure if they use the same tower as 103.9 or they use their own. Sometimes their HD signal is spotty at times but if you are in Woodstock it's not bad.

104.7 is for sure a weaker signal. HD is added at a lower wattage, which is first to go when the signal strength drops. The us talked about increasing the wattage.. not sure the same is happening here.

**Posted by RadioActive** **Online!** November 21, 2024 9:58 pm

Shane Hewitt was playing some songs from 1984-1985 and mentioned "if you're listening on HD, it sounds even better." I'm not sure, but I think that's the first time HD has been referred to on CFRB (and the network) since they started doing it on 99.9 FM.

Odd coincidence, considering what we've been discussing here.

**Posted by Retaw** November 23, 2024 7:04 am

I drive two vehicles made within the last decade (one's less than 5 years old) and neither were equipped with HD radios. One's manufactured in Canada. The other's from the U.S. I cannot afford luxury brands, but neither of these vehicles are low end, nor are they the base package. Admittedly, there are versions with HD radios (and if I really wanted to, I could swap out the centre console), but it seems like it's really easy to avoid this technology. Both of them have XM and CarPlay/Android Auto support.

It's obvious why adoption is so slow. As stated, very few broadcasters in Canada utilize the technology in any substantial way. Fewer promote that. This in turn means consumer awareness is undoubtedly low. I don't see how you increase that when even more capable technology (streaming) is common place. That creates a vicious cycle where manufacturers feel no need to pay Xperi for the hardware and licensing costs. You see this with the at-home HD radio market, which isn't really a market. Sangean appears to be the only one currently making any that aren't aimed exclusively at audiophiles. At this point, general consumers are probably better off just buying an internet radio or pairing apps from their phone to a Bluetooth speaker.