Used to have quite an audience in Toronto, too, until too many nearby signals started interfering and drowned them out. 

radiokid wrote:

Keep in mind... the ratings system is very different in the USA.    They ensure key ethnic groups are part of the sample, unlike Canada where it's a luck.    Stations like WBLK benefit from this as they target some of those, in a market that is not overwhelmingly Caucasian.   In Canada, doing urban or urban ac has 2 things against it...    We don't ensure key groups are counted in the ratings and Cancon.     Until we change these 2 sticking points, Urban and Urban AC formats run at a huge disadvantage and will never see numbers remotely close to WBLK. 

On an ironic note, WE are the multicultural society, not them. 

Radiowiz wrote:

radiokid wrote:

Keep in mind... the ratings system is very different in the USA.    They ensure key ethnic groups are part of the sample, unlike Canada where it's a luck.    Stations like WBLK benefit from this as they target some of those, in a market that is not overwhelmingly Caucasian.   In Canada, doing urban or urban ac has 2 things against it...    We don't ensure key groups are counted in the ratings and Cancon.     Until we change these 2 sticking points, Urban and Urban AC formats run at a huge disadvantage and will never see numbers remotely close to WBLK. 

On an ironic note, WE are the multicultural society, not them. 

  Right?  You would think our ratings system would ensure equal rep from all but, sadly they treat it as you are nothing more than someone living in Canada.    The issue with that is the sample can be nothing but rich Caucasian Canadians....  vs a represented mix.

The USA normally ensures the sample has African Americans, Hispanic and some other key cultural demos..    Media pushed for that a long time ago....  Very wise move.    It shows a much more true picture. 
 

Last edited by radiokid (December 14, 2021 10:48 am)

If you're gold-based urban like BLK, Cancon is absolutely an issue. The hits simply don't exist, and going deep or unfamiliar never works.

paterson1 wrote:

RadioAaron wrote:

If you're gold-based urban like BLK, Cancon is absolutely an issue. The hits simply don't exist, and going deep or unfamiliar never works.

FLOW isn't gold based and shouldn't be so cancon is not as big an issue.  Also gold can be music from 3-5 years ago.  WBLK has been around for decades and is a heritage station, so not comparable. 
 

It is still an issue for them. They have to draw 40% of their music from a selection that contains less than 10% of the genre's HITS. This idea that a radio station can go and create the other 30% is false, especially in Urban, where the audience is using radio as only one of many sources. The proliferation of choice in media has made this more important than ever.

Radio stations that do well in ratings play almost all hits.

RadioAaron wrote:

paterson1 wrote:

RadioAaron wrote:

If you're gold-based urban like BLK, Cancon is absolutely an issue. The hits simply don't exist, and going deep or unfamiliar never works.

FLOW isn't gold based and shouldn't be so cancon is not as big an issue.  Also gold can be music from 3-5 years ago.  WBLK has been around for decades and is a heritage station, so not comparable. 
 

It is still an issue for them. They have to draw 40% of their music from a selection that contains less than 10% of the genre's HITS. This idea that a radio station can go and create the other 30% is false, especially in Urban, where the audience is using radio as only one of many sources. The proliferation of choice in media has made this more important than ever.

Radio stations that do well in ratings play almost all hits.

If all 25 or 30 stations in Toronto played only the hits,, you would still have stations like FLOW with low ratings.  Everybody can't just play the hits and have great ratings.  That doesn't happen either.  One problem for FLOW is the fact there are already better established stations that play enough urban hits to satisfy many listeners.  Even WBLK is playing Adele, is she an urban artist?  

And who says an urban station is always all about music?  The Breakfast Club morning show failed here but is  huge stateside and plays very little music.  Yet they have super ratings.  So urban radio need not only be about playing the most music and only hits.

What about  FLOWs personalities in addition to playing music also mixing it up and opening up the phone lines three or four times per day with a "Sound Off" or "What's Buggin You" or asking for listeners opinions on whatever.  I know, roll the eyes and laugh all you want...however.. Right away this makes FLOW different from other youth oriented radio stations in the city, respects the audience with content more than music, and opens up the possibility of attracting listeners that wouldn't normally be there.

Keep the focus on Toronto and the fact that two of the world's best and popular artist are from here and still either live in Toronto or back to the city regularly.  Both Drake and The Weeknd work with local artists and musicians, make the tie in and give these performers air play. 

Let's be honest, FLOW will never be #1 in Toronto, but it is very very attainable to triple what they have right now and be more of a contender to be in the top 7 or 8 stations.  The music is only part of the puzzle, and music, whatever type only takes you so far. 

So I guess I am a dinosaur. Citing only two artists over and over?  I could easily give you 40 Canadian Hip Hop recording artists, but I'll let you google that.

My phone comment was just an idea.  I like to try and come up with ideas and solutions rather than just blaming everything on cancon "over and over."  That has been the lazy solution for some since 1971!  Kind of weird that 50 years later we are still waiting for all of the carnage and damage to the radio industry that this forced unwanted airplay will cause.  Maybe next year..

All kidding aside, FLOW in my opinion is doing a lot of things right at this time.   They haven't had the history and heritage because of the things already mentioned.  They should keep doing what they are doing, help to make their hosts well known and household names to their listeners, get out in the community, be seen.   Listening to FLOW and WBLK both sound good in the evening.  FLOW just needs some time, but again it ain't easy to make people change the dial in Toronto. 

WBLK in the daytime to me is kind pedestrian and musically not that interesting.  FLOW daytime is a better station in my opinion, better music and good personalities.  More people just need to know about them.  Depends if Stingray will give them time before the consultants come in and start fiddling again. 

Pedestrian and musically not that interesting usually wins true, but everyone can't do this. You are kind confirming the problem with radio right now.  Too many are trying to do same thing or close to the same thing.  This is one reason why radio is in decline.  WBLK has been successful for decades and you are right they have moved on perfectly with their audience.  They also have a great history and have been  consistent. What they are doing makes sense for Buffalo.

FLOW doesn't have the history, doesn't have the roots that WBLK has. The audience and even Toronto doesn't really have these things either.  Just being WBLK north, even with no cancon probably wouldn't work, and you would be again starting from square one. 

I think FLOW is correct in what they are doing, playing current urban music, and imaging themselves as Toronto's Hip Hop station.  The biggest radio market in Canada should have no problem supporting a station like FLOW along with a country music station.  Both just need to be marketed correctly and this shouldn't include playing heavy urban gold throwbacks or country gold. 

 Always falling back to the way it used to be and looking backward is not the answer.  Toronto is growing and always moving forward.   The only backward thing FLOW should be doing is what WBLK did 45 years ago, connect to the city and audience.  And best of all FLOW and Toronto also has big advantages that WBLK does not have.  Play this up and ratings will grow.  I am not referring to Drake or The Weeknd!

Canadian hip hop artists?? Don't be so lazy Aaron, google it for yourself... 

paterson1 wrote:

Pedestrian and musically not that interesting usually wins true, but everyone can't do this. You are kind confirming the problem with radio right now.  Too many are trying to do same thing or close to the same thing.  This is one reason why radio is in decline.  

No, it's not the problem with radio. Radio has done way better than any would have predicted 15 years ago by leaning in to what works.

Now Aaron let's lighten up here.  We are starting to bore the kids, and RA is getting anxious about this long and lengthy post.  He is likely glad it is somebody else for a change debating with that never ending hemorrhoid known as Paterson1!

Even better than your gracious request of 10 here are 15 Canadian hip hop artists.  Another site Ranker listed 85 domestic hip hop recording artists.  And of course isn't The Block on CBC 2 all cancon?  This two hour show is on five nights per week.  So finding material shouldn't be a problem https://xttrawave.com/top-15-canadian-rappers-in-hip-hop/ 

Radio has done better, than anyone would have predicted 15 years ago, maybe, but predictions often aren't very accurate anyway.  And if the hammer for the industry happens, it usually takes a lot longer than most experts think.  Shouldn't commercial AM radio have been long gone by now?

The Block if not 100% cancon then very heavy.  I don't think you understand that "good" music becomes hit music.  But good music has first got to get played.  Just reading Billboard every week with no regard of the local scene doesn't cut it either.  Also I disagree, a station like FLOW can certainly make a hit record, happens in other markets all the time, so why not here?  Even if it only is a hit on their station or the GTA, that's all that matters.  But breaking a hit in other markets in North America is totally doable for FLOW. Maybe it has already happened?

FLOW like I mentioned is doing most things right, so it is not a question of me knowing better than them. My suggestions are pretty basic and not anything new.  FLOW only got rid of the Breakfast  Club a little more than a year ago which hurt their morning ratings and profile.  They have been unstable until fairly recently with format and ownership.   The station needs some time to grow, improve visibility, have fun and keep consistent. Will Stingray give them the time?

 I believe you once said that an urban station wouldn't work in Toronto.  You said something like since there is no history of urban radio, there is no legacy and young people can't listen to the same station their parents did growing up.  And because of this there is no urban momentum.

Well that's not true and I think you should know why.  There absolutely is urban momentum in Toronto. We have the world's biggest artist, that for over a decade has built his career by singing about the city and life in Toronto.  You don't get much more momentum than that.  And the Weeknd's cancon hit Blinding Lights just became the number one song of all time.  So the momentum is there and new artists are getting airplay but usually not on radio in their home country or city. 

You also have said in the past that Canadian radio had nothing to do with these two artists success.  That's nothing to be proud of.  In fact it is more embarrassing and sad and shows a real lack of creativity and ambition in the radio business. Maybe if the "real dinosaurs" that have been fighting domestic music airplay for 50 years got with the program more they would actually break some new artists, and introduce some new hits to the world.  Other stations and countries do this, might as well do the same here.  The talent and artists are there.

So FLOW, this 60's guy believes in you.  Keep up the good work. 

 

Scorpio42 wrote:

Radio.Intern wrote:

RadioActive wrote:

Used to have quite an audience in Toronto, too, until too many nearby signals started interfering and drowned them out. 

I still pick them up quite regularly from North York. Although, only on one home radio, and at times with interference from CKYC 93.7 in Owen Sound. 

 
That could also be CKOU-FM "K Country 93.7" that you're hearing from Georgina, Ontario about 70 kilometers north of North York and CKYC-FM 93.7 Owen Sound is further of nearly 190 kilometers northwest of North York.

CKOU-FM 93.7 Georgina,Ontario - Wikipedia:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CKOU-FM

Technical information for CKOU-FM, CKYC-FM and WBLK all transmitting at 93.7 MHz:
https://fccdata.org/?facid=&call=CKOU-FM
https://fccdata.org/?facid=&call=CKYC-FM
https://fccdata.org/?facid=&call=WBLK

Oh wow, thanks for this. I always thought it was CKYC I was picking up. I'll have to listen closely through the static next time country on 93.7 comes through.

The ironic thing about WBLK is shortly after I wrote my comment, I checked in on their signal from my radio, and it went out completely. Hasn't come back since 

Don't know if this is still a thing, but if you ever wanted to see a Buffalo radio station with such close ties to its Toronto audience, it's WBLK. Who else would do this?

I think the point is this is pretty rare in Southern Ontario. I can think of only two other instances from a long time ago that affected this part of the province.

CKLW is a no-brainer. They held a ton of events in Detroit for obvious reasons.

And WKBW jocks often crossed the border to the Niagara Falls area, because 1520 put in a strong signal there. They were never really a factor in Toronto, since their 50K signal was aimed the other way. I always regretted never hearing them in their prime, but outside of occasional DXing through the static, it just didn't come in well enough to listen to regularly. I was more likely to be tuned to WGR in those days. Although Billboard's Radio Station of the Year repeat winner had a lot of fans up here, I don't think they ever bothered much with Toronto.