- kevjo
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Re: When 640 Battled 680
markow202 wrote:
As per CHUM FM history in the Canadian History database website:1984 In September, CHUM-FM began to move away from Album Rock to Adult Contemporary.
Also figuring into the landscape at the time was WPHD and 97ROCK in Buffalo dropping out of the rock format early in 1985. That left Q107 as the only rock station in all of southern Ontario and western New York. Because of this they began to include a few Buffalo references in their talk as many Buffalo area listeners had started tuning in. This was the situation for about and year and a half until 97.7 in St. Catharines switched to rock in the summer of 1986. Two years later following a disastrous period as a light AC, 97ROCK returned. I believe just before that WPHD also brought back the rock but what a ride Q had for a while.
- Lorne
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Re: When 640 Battled 680
I recall hearing a "special" weekend on FM108 when they played songs that didn't make the top 40. I don't remember if I eventually heard why they did this, but I certainly wonder if it was also because they had gotten into trouble with the CRTC over the non-hit requirement. I do remember becoming aware that there were certain songs that they would play that had just missed the top 40, been hits elsewhere, etc. to help meet the non-hit requirement.
Wasn't FM 108 trying to be more oldies driven? If so, that rules out the opportunity to play new Canadian music for a full year before counting it as hit music.
They were very smart, I think, for finding a creative way to work with the 49% non hit rule that existed back then.
Sorry, I should have made it clearer that this was when they were an oldies station.
- Fitz
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Re: When 640 Battled 680
As per CHUM FM history in the Canadian History database website:1984 In September, CHUM-FM began to move away from Album Rock to Adult Contemporary.
Also figuring into the landscape at the time was WPHD and 97ROCK in Buffalo dropping out of the rock format early in 1985. That left Q107 as the only rock station in all of southern Ontario and western New York. Because of this they began to include a few Buffalo references in their talk as many Buffalo area listeners had started tuning in. This was the situation for about and year and a half until 97.7 in St. Catharines switched to rock in the summer of 1986. Two years later following a disastrous period as a light AC, 97ROCK returned. I believe just before that WPHD also brought back the rock but what a ride Q had for a while.
WBYR at 107.7 had some success in Buffalo trying to fill the rock gap when 97 Rock became WRLT. That was in between the great WUWU FM and a jazz format at 107.7. The Bear as the station was called had Jim Santella as a announcer but I preferred the free-wheeling WUWU where Jim also worked.
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- RadioActive
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Re: When 640 Battled 680
also stopped listening to most Canadian FMs in the '80s because of the silly non-hit rule and the overabundance of Can-Con burn-outs. Typical bureaucratic overthink - making the emerging FMs sound worse just to prop up AM for a few years. I listened to WPHD, WBUF and WHTT in the '80s with FM 108 the only Canadian outlet I could stomach.
Regarding what in retrospect was a silly non-hits on FM rule, the CRTC actually came down on several Toronto stations for the sin of playing too many popular records. The nerve of these guys! From 1998:
By 1991, the rules were clarified, but only for some Canadian songs:
And then, in 1992, the rule seemed to match that old real estate canard - location, location, location:
This is the kind of CRTC interference that has always driven me crazy. I will always have a soft spot in my heart for AM (not to mention the soft spot in my head!) but this seemed like a protection policy without any real point. In the end, FM was always going to overtake its older brother and there was no point in fooling around with evolution.
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Thread Starter- paterson1
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Re: When 640 Battled 680
I forgot that cancon back then was low for FM radio, anywhere from 10 to 30 percent. Most stations were at 20% during the hit/non era. The CRTC "interference" was part of it's mandate. A big part of the CRTC being in existence beyond the licensing and renewal of stations is cancon. The regs were, and are there, to insure that a reasonable about of Canadian programming actually gets on the air for radio and TV in Canada.
The CRTC and FCC are two different animals and don't operate the same, or even have the same mandate. So I guess it would be frustrating if viewing the CRTC as the Canadian version of the FCC, with a similar mandate, however this has never been the case. Like I have said many times, the regulations and cancon are part of doing business, and all stations were well aware of this, back in October 1987.
In 1991 when the CRTC did away with all of the classifications for pop music and FM could play the hits or change format if they wanted, many still didn't. Stations like Q107, CFNY, FM 96, CHTZ FM continued to play album cuts for a long time after, and still do. Also worth noting that during the hit/non era, CHUM FM nailed the upper income, yuppie urban listener to a tee, and were getting the demographics, ratings, and likely revenue that others could only dream about.
- RadioActive
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Re: When 640 Battled 680
Actually, I wasn't even referring to CanCon in my post, although I can see why you might think that given our history on this thing.
I meant the CRTC's idea of mandating non-hits on one band over the other. For a government agency to tell a certain segment of radio stations, "these are the songs people like and you can only play half of them," is completely absurd.
If they want to issue rules about Canadian content, I'm not entirely happy with it, but as you note, that's their mandate. But they have no business telling a station operating in any format how many songs they have to leave out over some arbitrary drive to protect someone else. That's crazy and no other business on earth would ever be asked to put up with it. ("I'm sorry, Sobey's. You can only sell half a frozen pizza, because it might hurt No Frills, which is selling a whole one." Not entirely comparable, I'll agree, but you get how stupid it sounds in principle.)
The fact that the regs are no longer in existence is certainly proof of how dumb they were. And that's what I meant by the "CRTC's interference." When the Commissioners can run a successful radio station, let me know. Until then, stop interfering with what the pros know how to do best - attract an audience.
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Thread Starter- paterson1
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Re: When 640 Battled 680
As usual, lots to chew on here RA! I only mentioned cancon because I forgot it was lower for FM back in 1997. And I mentioned that cancon was a big part of the CRTC's coming into existence in the first place, something that doesn't apply to the FCC. They are two regulating agencies and not always comparable.
Stations were not playing "half the hits" they just weren't playing them as often. Most if not all of the stations affected by the hit/non on FM also had AM stations. It could also be that the regulation for hit/non originally came about after input from broadcasters. Initially I don't recall companies having a big issue with this regulation, since it was their AM stations that were making most of the money and FM just starting to get traction. But all things change and come to an end.
The fact that the regs have not been around since 1991 has nothing to do with how "dumb" they were. Times change, many more FM stations came on line, and the FM operations were now starting to become the money makers. So the CRTC did away with the categories for popular music, no commercial limits for AM and FM, stations were free to change music formats anytime, and they did away with the hit/non regulation. These changes have nothing to do with "dumb regulations" but rather the CRTC doing their job and responding to changes in the marketplace and to broadcasters. Oh, and the hit/non hit still applies to stations in Ottawa and Montreal. Two cities that in many ways have better and more varied radio than Toronto, and more exciting. Two vibrant and very competitive radio markets, and in the case of Montreal with direct US border competition, that has never made much of an impact.
I am of the take that we have generally a healthier radio industry in Canada than other similar countries. Part of this is because of the CRTC's regulations, and more cautious and yes more boring approach. However, disagree all you want, over the past 50 years generally this has served us well. Canadian broadcasters, like our banks don't go bankrupt and rarely file for creditor protection. That is significant, especially with the conditions over the past couple of years. Also is a credit to broadcast companies large and small who have also had to manage all of these challenges and adapt quickly. Layoffs and downsizing notwithstanding.
If radio is becoming boring or too formula sounding, that has nothing to do with the CRTC as far as I am concerned, but it has everything to do with the creativity and imagination of broadcasters. It's up to broadcasters to accept this challenge and do something with it. 
Last edited by paterson1 (June 27, 2021 8:37 pm)
- RadioActive
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Re: When 640 Battled 680
As usual, lots to chew on here RA! I only mentioned cancon because I forgot it was lower for FM back in 1997. And I mentioned that cancon was a big part of the CRTC's coming into existence in the first place, something that doesn't apply to the FCC. They are two regulating agencies and not always comparable.
I'm not sure why you keep referring to the FCC. I don't recall comparing the two entities and both have their shortcomings. But at least the FCC doesn't try to dictate any content on the airwaves, with perhaps the exception of foul language and hate speech.
Stations were not playing "half the hits" they just weren't playing them as often. Most if not all of the stations affected by the hit/non on FM also had AM stations. It could also be that the regulation for hit/non originally came about after input from broadcasters. Initially I don't recall companies having a big issue with this regulation, since it was their AM stations that were making most of the money and FM just starting to get traction. But all things change and come to an end.
It should never have been an issue in the first place. Radio is radio, whether it's on FM, AM or SW for that matter. The only thing different is the propagation and the sound. Again, my main and really only point in all our months of discussing this is that the government - or one of its agencies - has no business dictating what you should or shouldn't be able to program. Let the listeners decide. This is just obvious to me. Regulate who gets a licence. Rule on frequency allocation or interference. And yes, set CanCon quotas if you have to. But telling me I can only play so many hits to protect another station? That's absurd.
Oh, and the hit/non hit still applies to stations in Ottawa and Montreal. Two cities that in many ways have better and more varied radio than Toronto, and more exciting. Two vibrant and very competitive radio markets, and in the case of Montreal with direct US border competition, that has never made much of an impact.
I must admit I wasn't aware that this silly regulation was still in effect anywhere. Why?
I am of the take that we have generally a healthier radio industry in Canada than other similar countries. Part of this is because of the CRTC's regulations, and more cautious and yes more boring approach. However, disagree all you want, over the past 50 years generally this has served us well. Canadian broadcasters, like our banks don't go bankrupt and rarely file for creditor protection. That is significant, especially with the conditions over the past couple of years. Also is a credit to broadcast companies large and small who have also had to manage all of these challenges and adapt quickly. Layoffs and downsizing notwithstanding.
And perhaps it's also the fact that there are hundreds more radio stations in the U.S. than in Canada, many in small towns. Which may be why there are more going belly up, in light of streaming and the Internet. The more there are, the more likely some of them will fail - especially with the pandemic drying up advertising.
If radio is becoming boring or too formula sounding, that has nothing to do with the CRTC as far as I am concerned, but it has everything to do with the creativity and imagination of broadcasters. It's up to broadcasters to accept this challenge and do something with it.
Well, I could certainly argue over-regulation hasn't helped Canadian radio. But I will agree it's up to the broadcasters to put out an entertaining product. If they don't, the numbers will reflect it. Firing 80% of your staff (I'm looking at you, Bell Media) is certainly not going to do much to help!
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Thread Starter- paterson1
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Re: When 640 Battled 680
The reason I bring up the FCC is because you keep saying that the CRTC has no business in areas that actually are part of their business and mandate. The fact that you don't like it or think it is wrong is not the point. We can't base what the CRTC should and shouldn't do on what the FCC is doing. They are different organizations regulating different broadcast systems, with different areas of jurisdiction. Sorry this has been such a problem for you for the last 50 years.
Radio, both AM and FM evolved a little differently here, and some of the regulations 20, 30, 40 years ago reflected this. Again initially the hit/non wasn't really an issue since almost all broadcasters owned both AM and FM operations. It became one for broadcasters when changes in the market and the expansion of FM took place. That's why the regulations were dropped and loosened up. Should it have happened sooner, probably. But again it wasn't hurting FM, and likely helped AM for a while. The listeners always decide here and anywhere else with ratings. If they don't like your product they ain't going to listen.
The hit/non hit still applies in Montreal and Ottawa, for English stations. French stations already play a lot of non hit material and also play 65% french content, almost all of which is cancon. So right or wrong the ratio still applies. This should be dropped in these markets, and the french quota reduced. In France radio only needs to play 30% french music. Back in 2015 many french radio stations in France boycotted the 40% music quota, and eventually it was reduced to 30%. Oh no...let's not get any crazy ideas now...
I never said anything about US stations going belly up. But since you brought it up! It has been strange that many of the large radio conglomerates in the US that have either gone bankrupt or filed for chapter 11 over the past few decades. Our big media conglomerates don't have that problem, at least not so far. Pound for pound the US has more stations than we do, but also has a lot more ghost stations that nobody works at, or stations on permanent auto pilot.
Bell Media fired 80% of their staff? Huh? I thought it was 210 across the country. I think they still employ over 5,000 people. Layoffs and downsizing is always painful (I have been through both) and there could be more to come. But companies like Bell Media and Rogers also are still hiring.
- Radiowiz
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Re: When 640 Battled 680
It was actually fun hearing Unskinny Bop on both CFTR and the Hog at the same time, by total fluke.
RadioWiz & RadioQuiz are NOT the same person.
RadioWiz & THE Wiz are NOT the same person.