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March 21, 2019 7:12 am  #1


Analog Global Channel on 73 ?

I have cable and have not tried to get any TV channels off the air in many many years but just to see what is there I hooked up my amplified FM antenna to a TV and did a scan.

I was surprised to find one analog channel on 73. Global and I think it's from Peterborough judging by the ads. I thought there were no analog stations left on the air ?

The other channels that I picked up on the initial scan were WIVB ( the CBS feed), Two Laff channels, WKBW, Escape, Grit, WIVB again but the local feed but the TV readout indicates it is supposed to be WNLO on 23.1and CBLF. Plus a bunch of channels that were picked up on the initial scan but I did not get when I tried. These include CIII, Mytv, Stadium, Comet and Get TV. I presume they may come in at certain times as they were picked up on the scan.

I was surprised to be getting the Buffalo stations but so little local and I guess a scan at a different time will pick up different stations depending on atmospherics.

Also found another analog Global on channel 22 on a subsequent scan and a bunch of other stations including Antenna, WGRZ, CFTO, CBLT, TVO, Justice and maybe more.

Last edited by Fitz (March 21, 2019 8:02 am)


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March 21, 2019 8:10 am  #2


Re: Analog Global Channel on 73 ?

Ah - finally a subject thread I can get interested in 

Quote from the attached link- "The UHF band originally had 70 RF channels (14-83). Channel 37 is reserved for radio astronomy leaving 69 UHF Tv RF channels. The band was later reduce to channels 14 - 69 (56 channels), leaving 55 UHF Tv RF channels. Additional reductions in the UHF band started in 2017"  http://otadtv.com/frequency/index.html

I have to think that whatever you're seeing on"73" is one of your devices, TV or converter of some sort, that is falsely displaying what is a digital signal as being analog.
That's my 1.4 cents worth - "2 cents" after conversion to US$
 

Last edited by DeepTracks (March 21, 2019 8:11 am)

 

March 21, 2019 9:03 am  #3


Re: Analog Global Channel on 73 ?

DeepTracks wrote:

Ah - finally a subject thread I can get interested in 

Quote from the attached link- "The UHF band originally had 70 RF channels (14-83). Channel 37 is reserved for radio astronomy leaving 69 UHF Tv RF channels. The band was later reduce to channels 14 - 69 (56 channels), leaving 55 UHF Tv RF channels. Additional reductions in the UHF band started in 2017"  http://otadtv.com/frequency/index.html

I have to think that whatever you're seeing on"73" is one of your devices, TV or converter of some sort, that is falsely displaying what is a digital signal as being analog.
That's my 1.4 cents worth - "2 cents" after conversion to US$
 

no it appears to be analog and you can see it at around the 1:02 mark below:




 


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March 21, 2019 9:39 am  #4


Re: Analog Global Channel on 73 ?

Geeez... no Ion-TV on 51??

 

March 21, 2019 9:40 am  #5


Re: Analog Global Channel on 73 ?

Both Peterborough ch.12 and Cobourg ch. 27 (each of which are now Global) are digital but Oshawa on 22 is still analog. Oshawa mostly repeats Peterborough.

 

March 21, 2019 10:14 am  #6


Re: Analog Global Channel on 73 ?

andysradio wrote:

Both Peterborough ch.12 and Cobourg ch. 27 (each of which are now Global) are digital but Oshawa on 22 is still analog. Oshawa mostly repeats Peterborough.

I was able to get the analog 22 as well but not on what I posted. the one that appears as 73 must be Peterborough as I saw ads that concentrated on that area.
 


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March 21, 2019 11:24 am  #7


Re: Analog Global Channel on 73 ?

Analog or Digital - the fact remains that there are, or should not be, any OTA signals on (old) UHF channel 73. 

Remember back when CITY TV on 79 had to change channel to 57 because of the takeover/handover of that upper spectrum?

Last edited by DeepTracks (March 21, 2019 11:25 am)

 

March 21, 2019 11:35 am  #8


Re: Analog Global Channel on 73 ?

There is no Global on CH 73.  There is Global Bancroft on CH 2 Analog.  Google CIII-DT to see the listings...simple as that. 

 

March 21, 2019 11:49 am  #9


Re: Analog Global Channel on 73 ?

Fitz wrote:

....... the one that appears as 73 must be Peterborough as I saw ads that concentrated on that area.
 

You will get Peterborough commercials on the Oshawa repeater - or do you notice a difference between the 2 signals content wise?
I wonder if you are getting some sort of mixing product.


 

 

March 21, 2019 12:32 pm  #10


Re: Analog Global Channel on 73 ?

I think Deep Tracks is on the right track. It looks like it's a harmonic of something running in your house or from a close neighbor. Do you have an old VCR, for example?

The video carrier for the former channel 73 is 825.25 MHz. This has been the exclusive domain of the celcos since the 1980s. There is no way a "legitimate" TV station would be transmitting up there.

 

March 21, 2019 1:01 pm  #11


Re: Analog Global Channel on 73 ?

Tim Brown 2016 wrote:

I think Deep Tracks is on the right track. It looks like it's a harmonic of something running in your house or from a close neighbor. Do you have an old VCR, for example?

The video carrier for the former channel 73 is 825.25 MHz. This has been the exclusive domain of the celcos since the 1980s. There is no way a "legitimate" TV station would be transmitting up there.

Yes I do believe he is on the right track. I have two old VCR's but they are both unplugged right now and in the basement. The TV I was trying is on the second floor.

Seems like it is channel 22 showing up as channel 73 but it's also sometimes shows up as 22. Am surprised that I am receiving it as the antenna I am using is designed for FM ( VHF) and 22 is UHF and the transmitter is somewhere out in east Durham I believe. According to Wiki there are a few stray analog signals still out there, not sure why though and I doubt that any of them have any unique content.

In any case the whole exercise of hooking up the FM antenna to the TV has been worthwhile because I get to view Antenna ( The TV channel) and perhaps a few other cool stations not on cable. 
 


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March 21, 2019 1:33 pm  #12


Re: Analog Global Channel on 73 ?

Fitz wrote:

Am surprised that I am receiving it as the antenna I am using is designed for FM 

Is it an active (powered) antenna? If so, the amplifier in there could be creating or co-creating a spurious carrier on the UHF band. Channel 73 in your case.

Another possibility is issues at the transmitter site creating the spur on channel 73.

Fitz wrote:

22 is UHF and the transmitter is somewhere out in east Durham I believe.

Somewhere in Durham.

Fitz wrote:

There are a few stray analog signals still out there, not sure why though and I doubt that any of them have any unique content.

Here's the info. Not sure how current it is. To my knowledge channel 22 Durham is the only analogue OTA station in the GTA. The next closest analogue station is Global, Bancroft (channel 2) if it's even still on the air.

Currently, the UHF TV band ends at channel 51.The industry is in the midst of a channel repack that will see the UHF TV band end at channel 36 by 2022 I believe.

Fitz wrote:

In any case the whole exercise of hooking up the FM antenna to the TV has been worthwhile because I get to view Antenna ( The TV channel) and perhaps a few other cool stations not on cable.

Technically better picture quality too because of less compression. Also, OTA means you can become a cord-cutter. This elite class of viewers have discovered they need not pay for cable tv.

Last edited by Tim Brown 2016 (March 21, 2019 1:40 pm)

 

March 21, 2019 1:41 pm  #13


Re: Analog Global Channel on 73 ?

Fitz wrote:

The next closest analogue station is Global, Bancroft (channel 22) if it's even on the air.

Bancroft is still on air on but ch. 2. Also CFTO has an analog repeater on ch. 21 at Severn Falls [Orillia] and the other analog in the area is the CKNY repeater at Dwight on Ch. 11.

 

March 21, 2019 4:49 pm  #14


Re: Analog Global Channel on 73 ?

andysradio wrote:

Fitz wrote:

The next closest analogue station is Global, Bancroft (channel 22) if it's even on the air.

Bancroft is still on air on but ch. 2. Also CFTO has an analog repeater on ch. 21 at Severn Falls [Orillia] and the other analog in the area is the CKNY repeater at Dwight on Ch. 11.

Cottage is 30 mins from the CFTO Ch 21 Analog repeater.  Quite surprised this remained as-is especially with how Bell-Media loves to use their chopping block, meanwhile Global decided to convert their mega Ch 7. repeater tower north of Honey Harbour to full HD.

Since were on the topic, I always found it quite interesting how CKCO (Bell) lost this analog repeater, situated on atop the beautiful Bruce Peninsula a kilometer from the Georgian Bay shoreline.   

https://blog.fagstein.com/2014/08/09/ckco-wiarton/

This was also an amazing DX received signal as Channel 2 with the highest power available legally, surrounded by nothing but water (Georgian Bay and Lake Huron) behaved at times like short wave. People have recorded CKCO-TV-2 in  South Florida and Salt Lake City.  CKVR in its analog days, also shared the same DX.

 

Last edited by markow202 (March 21, 2019 4:59 pm)

 

March 23, 2019 8:31 am  #15


Re: Analog Global Channel on 73 ?

The amplified FM antenna that I first used was not able to get Antenna TV consistently and so I bought a Clear stream Flex  pad type indoor TV antenna and that is obtaining better results and I have been able to get certain American channels  consistently. I do have to change the position of the antenna to maximize coverage but some US channels are present regardless of atmospherics.  May be interesting to see what comes in on a day when US signals are in abundance. I may be in a good reception area.

Below is a scan I did this morning. There was some distracting house audio which I muted and instead used a small snippet of audio from a WNEW FM air check which I digitized a some time back but have not uploaded yet. 

94.3 is a channel which broadcasts WNED ( and I think WBFO)  audio.

The analog Global still comes in at channel 73 but on a second TV it comes in on the correct  channel.



 

Last edited by Fitz (March 23, 2019 8:51 am)


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March 23, 2019 12:05 pm  #16


Re: Analog Global Channel on 73 ?

Fitz, If you're able to install an outdoor antenna, you'll be amazed what you can get. I highly recommend the Antennas Direct dB4e. Same manufacturer as your Clearstream. With the dB4e, we are able to receive all Toronto, Hamilton and Buffalo, including the Southlands up here in Stouffville.. WXXI from Rochester often came in as well.

Eager to hear that audio of WNEW. Hoping you were able to catch an ID. I haven't checked lately but the feed of WNED-FM 94.5 was a sub-channel on WNED TV which is RF channel 43 (mapped to virtual channel 17). Understandably, it's a bit confusing.

 

March 23, 2019 2:23 pm  #17


Re: Analog Global Channel on 73 ?

There's a surprisingly easy answer to the channel 73 thing. The TV is set to scan for analog cable channels - and cable, in the analog days, used a different set of frequency/channel mappings than broadcast TV did, because cable could use the continuous spectrum from 54 MHz upward, while broadcast had gaps between channel bands for non-broadcast services (FM, aircraft, etc)

Cable channel "73" was 516-522 MHz. 

UHF channel 22 is 518-524 MHz. 

And so you're getting UHF broadcast channel 22, but registering as a cable frequency instead... hence "73"!
 

 

March 23, 2019 4:04 pm  #18


Re: Analog Global Channel on 73 ?

fybush wrote:

There's a surprisingly easy answer to the channel 73 thing. The TV is set to scan for analog cable channels - and cable, in the analog days, used a different set of frequency/channel mappings than broadcast TV did, because cable could use the continuous spectrum from 54 MHz upward, while broadcast had gaps between channel bands for non-broadcast services (FM, aircraft, etc)

Cable channel "73" was 516-522 MHz. 

UHF channel 22 is 518-524 MHz. 

And so you're getting UHF broadcast channel 22, but registering as a cable frequency instead... hence "73"!
 

One of my stints at Rogers over the years was Manager of Digital Cable Technology Development. That was 2006. It was very shortly after that they had cleared off all analogue channels. Fitz must be on an MSO other than Rogers. Fitz, are you on Cogeco?
 

 

March 23, 2019 4:34 pm  #19


Re: Analog Global Channel on 73 ?

Tim Brown 2016 wrote:

fybush wrote:

There's a surprisingly easy answer to the channel 73 thing. The TV is set to scan for analog cable channels - and cable, in the analog days, used a different set of frequency/channel mappings than broadcast TV did, because cable could use the continuous spectrum from 54 MHz upward, while broadcast had gaps between channel bands for non-broadcast services (FM, aircraft, etc)

Cable channel "73" was 516-522 MHz. 

UHF channel 22 is 518-524 MHz. 

And so you're getting UHF broadcast channel 22, but registering as a cable frequency instead... hence "73"!
 

One of my stints at Rogers over the years was Manager of Digital Cable Technology Development. That was 2006. It was very shortly after that they had cleared off all analogue channels. Fitz must be on an MSO other than Rogers. Fitz, are you on Cogeco?
 

Thanks for the answer re 73 fybush. Tim I am with Rogers in an area that has been Rogers for decades as far as I know.

One channel that I would like to have and have not yet been successful in receiving with the indoor antenna is METV. I don't want to go with an outdoor antenna but out of curiosity is it consistently obtainable with an outdoor antenna ?
 


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March 23, 2019 4:50 pm  #20


Re: Analog Global Channel on 73 ?

Tim Brown 2016 wrote:

Fitz, If you're able to install an outdoor antenna, you'll be amazed what you can get. I highly recommend the Antennas Direct dB4e. Same manufacturer as your Clearstream. With the dB4e, we are able to receive all Toronto, Hamilton and Buffalo, including the Southlands up here in Stouffville.. WXXI from Rochester often came in as well.

Eager to hear that audio of WNEW. Hoping you were able to catch an ID. I haven't checked lately but the feed of WNED-FM 94.5 was a sub-channel on WNED TV which is RF channel 43 (mapped to virtual channel 17). Understandably, it's a bit confusing.

Thanks for the suggestion but I am not ready to go with an outdoor antenna just yet. The WNEW audio on my YT clip is a short snippet of a much longer broadcast  that I have and it was recorded in the NY area in the mid 1980's.


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March 24, 2019 10:47 am  #21


Re: Analog Global Channel on 73 ?

Fitz wrote:

One channel that I would like to have and have not yet been successful in receiving with the indoor antenna is METV. I don't want to go with an outdoor antenna but out of curiosity is it consistently obtainable with an outdoor antenna ?

Do you mean MyTV on channel 49? I'd say it's received here in Stouffville about 85% of the time.

 

March 24, 2019 11:51 am  #22


Re: Analog Global Channel on 73 ?

Sometime between June  22nd and August 2nd   (latest date August 2nd) of this year, OTA reception will change for many of us.  WUTV is likely to switch to RF OTA channel 32 (off air channel) from Grand Island.   WIVB/WNLO will switch to RF OTA Ch. 36, and relocate their transmitters (back) to Colden NY, to the tower site where WIVB broadcast from, in digital from around 2009 to 2017.   Although WNLO/WIVB on Ch. 36 at Colden NY, is likely to have a significant increase to 800 KW at Colden (versus much lower power at that previous site on RF 39), viewers may find the signal less reliable than the (current) Grand Island site.  ION WPXJ RF OTA Channel 51  will switch to RF OTA Ch.  24, during that same period of time.

In March 2020 you will see WNED switch from RF OTA 43 to RF OTA 31; Likely a more reliable signal in parts of the GTA even though power will remain at only175KW.   WKBW will switch from RF OTA 38 to RF OTA 34.   The station will reduce power significantly, sometime in runner or fall 2019, to facilitate a major site rebuild at their tower.  There is likely to be a signal improvement for WKBW in March 2020 - going from around 338 KW to 660 KW (recently approved by the FCC).

Other "good" news for OTA viewers, WNYO will switch from OTA Ch 49 to OTA Channel 16.  Though they may be using Version 3 of the digital coding system, which is not built into current TV's or set-top boxes.  They will move to Grand Island, but will have a major "null" in their directional antenna towards Toronto.

Anyone who currently picks up WNYB, the religious broadcaster from Jamestown NY on Ch. 26 is likely to lose reception as it will move to low-band Channel 5.

 

March 24, 2019 2:06 pm  #23


Re: Analog Global Channel on 73 ?

I'm also worried about some of these changes. WIVB was a hit-and-miss station in the GTA before it switched to the WNLO tower. Since then, it's been great here. But now I'm worried I could lose both Channels 4 & 23 with this switch.

Still, the repack giveth as much as it taketh away. Any improvement in WKBW to the north will be helpful.

I almost never watch Channel 49, but I don't necessarily want to lose it, either. 

All of this is with a fairly high outside antenna on a rotor. I can't imagine how bad things will get for those who just have an indoor connector. 

Channel Master sells a decent amplifier, but if there's not enough signal here, it seems to me no boost will really help.

 

March 24, 2019 2:58 pm  #24


Re: Analog Global Channel on 73 ?

Tim Brown 2016 wrote:

Fitz wrote:

One channel that I would like to have and have not yet been successful in receiving with the indoor antenna is METV. I don't want to go with an outdoor antenna but out of curiosity is it consistently obtainable with an outdoor antenna ?

Do you mean MyTV on channel 49? I'd say it's received here in Stouffville about 85% of the time.

No I have gotten MyTV quite consistently until now. Metv carries mostly retro shows and is a network out of Chicago and operates a low power station  out of Buffalo and I want to know if it can be received with an outdoor antenna in Toronto.
 


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March 24, 2019 3:49 pm  #25


Re: Analog Global Channel on 73 ?

Fitz wrote:

Metv carries mostly retro shows and is a network out of Chicago and operates a low power station  out of Buffalo and I want to know if it can be received with an outdoor antenna in Toronto.

I live in what I euphemistically call northern North York, with a high antenna mast and a rotor. The station you're referring to, channel 67, WBBZ (which they call Buffalo's Buzz but is actually from Springville, N.Y.) is a very low power outlet that remained very low powered when everything converted to digital, and remains on actual VHF channel 7.

I would say it comes in here on the average of about 10 times a year, and only when the weather conditions are right - which means almost solely in the summer. And even then it doesn't last long. Not sure how those with an antenna downtown do, but I doubt it's much better. 

I can honestly say of all the stations I can't get with an antenna, this is the one I wish I could receive on a regular basis. But it just doesn't have the reach and so it's great those few times a year when everything is just right and it pops in.

In my experience, at least, I'd say mostly no, it can't be received full time or even close to part time in the GTA. Channels 51 and 26 are also hit and miss but a little more frequent in the summer than the MeTV signals on 67. I'd hate to lose any of them to the repack, but I'm pretty sure it's not going to make them any easier to get here.

There's also a broadcaster on channel 56, called WBXZ, another low power station and another source for TV classics. They have no less than 9(!) subcarriers on the channel, including RetroTV, CoziTV and Throwback TV. I've never even gotten a sniff at this station and don't expect I ever will, although some in the Niagara Region area may be able to pull it in from time to time.   

 

March 25, 2019 9:24 pm  #26


Re: Analog Global Channel on 73 ?

Tim Brown 2016 wrote:

One of my stints at Rogers over the years was Manager of Digital Cable Technology Development. That was 2006. It was very shortly after that they had cleared off all analogue channels. Fitz must be on an MSO other than Rogers. Fitz, are you on Cogeco?
 

Has nothing to do with the local cable co, in this case. Fitz is getting the CHEX Durham channel 22 analog transmitter over the air - but on a TV that's set to scan for analog cable channel frequencies instead of analog OTA frequencies, which is why 22 shows up as "73."

If Fitz rescans the TV after resetting it (usually somewhere in the menu settings) for "air" instead of "cable," CHEX will show up properly on 22. 
 

 

March 25, 2019 10:50 pm  #27


Re: Analog Global Channel on 73 ?

fybush wrote:

Has nothing to do with the local cable co, in this case. Fitz is getting the CHEX Durham channel 22 analog transmitter over the air - but on a TV that's set to scan for analog cable channel frequencies instead of analog OTA frequencies, which is why 22 shows up as "73."

If Fitz rescans the TV after resetting it (usually somewhere in the menu settings) for "air" instead of "cable," CHEX will show up properly on 22. 
 

That makes sense as I was wondering why the TV did not force me to switch to "air" or "antenna" and let me do the scan tho I left it on cable. The other TV on which the channel is appearing on 22 would not let me do the digital scan unless I switched from cable to antenna.


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