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March 21, 2023 12:37 pm  #1


The Two GTA FM Stations You May Not Know Exist

It's hard to imagine there are any radio stations in the city that many people don't know about, but there could be at least two. Both have very weak signals, both are on crowded frequencies and both are highly local. And neither of them really fits on an already crowded GTA dial. 

Every heard of or listen to CJML-FM? How about CKMO-FM? The former is at 101.3 in Milton while the latter is perched nearby at 101.5 in Orangeville. And I've never gotten a sniff of either of them here in North York.

I'm not even sure how 101.3 FM in this area is even possible, given the presence of ethnic broadcaster CJSA Toronto on the exact same frequency.  How can two stations in such close proximity possibly exist so close to each other on the same dial position without creating massive interference? CJSA is 833 watts, while CJML is all of 480 watts. But even if they're highly directional, with so little separation, I'm not sure how both can be on the air in such close proximity. 

Meanwhile, a nudge down the dial at 101.5 sits the Orangeville outlet that, unlike CIDC, actually does cover Orangeville. I can't get them either, as they put out a signal at only 625 watts. 

Both are owned by Local Radio Lab, which also controls FM 92 in South Simcoe. I guess they must make money, but given their tiny range, I honestly can't see how or who is listening. I wonder how many people who live in those areas even know they exist or if their programming is so vastly different than one of the bigger guys that anyone there ever tunes in.

It reminds me a lot of the Region 105.9, which essentially broadcasts to York Region and Vaughan, and has a pretty good talent pool, including Ann Rohmer and Kevin Frankish. And yet I've never met a single non-radio person who's ever tuned them in or even knows they exist. 

How do these guys stay on the air? I know 105.9 has at least three HD stations in foreign languages like Tamil, that help pay the bills. But the others? I honestly wasn't sure they were even a thing. And I'm a huge fan of local radio. 


 

March 21, 2023 1:12 pm  #2


Re: The Two GTA FM Stations You May Not Know Exist

I forgot about another one - CIWS-FM, aka Whistle FM, which is located at 102.9 in Stouffville. That frequency has so many nearby stations on it, including one in Scarborough and another in Newmarket, both at 102.7, that again, I can't quite fathom how so many stations, however weak, can possibly be within miles (or killometres if you prefer) of each other. and not cancel each other out.

     Thread Starter
 

March 21, 2023 1:37 pm  #3


Re: The Two GTA FM Stations You May Not Know Exist

Thanks! I keep forgetting that the Milton & Orangeville stations are not MY FM stations anymore. 
They used to be, but then they were sold. 


RadioWiz & RadioQuiz are NOT the same person. 
RadioWiz & THE Wiz are NOT the same person.

 
 

March 21, 2023 2:15 pm  #4


Re: The Two GTA FM Stations You May Not Know Exist

Broadcast Procedures and Rules, Part 3, define the protection ratios which must be met at the 0.5 mV/m contour of an existing station: - co-channel, 20 db; 1st adjacent, 6 dB; 2nd adjacent, -26 dB.  In Canada, we are allowed directional antennas with  a null depth of up to 20 dB, so with careful directional panel antenna design, judicious site selection, optimization of antenna EHAAT (effective height above average terrain) and ERP (effective radiated power), it's possible to pull it off.  Sometimes the results for a critically spaced drop-in are not stellar, but can still be adequate for small communities.
The design of directional FM panel antennas requires highly specialized software (specific to the manufacturer of the antenna), a lot of experience, and tenacity in iterating the variables (panel type, orientation, phase, and relative amplitude). 
Also, the downside to extreme short-spacing is that the interference-free signal area of the drop-in station may be limited to the (relatively high) 3 mV/m contour.
The tradeoff between height and power is an interesting one, because they it is not linearly related, and can also require a lot of iteration to arrive at the optimum combination.
The FCC rules do allow short spacing, but there is still a minimum separation distance which must be met as defined in Section 73.215, and directional antenna null depth is limited to 15 dB.  In Canada, there is no minimum spacing requirement, and that's how we end up with the stations on the same frequency being so closely packed.
 

 

March 21, 2023 3:27 pm  #5


Re: The Two GTA FM Stations You May Not Know Exist

Thanks for the explanation, although I'm not 100% sure I understood all of it. As a listener (although admittedly not to these stations) I can't really see the point of granting a licence to outlets that you know are going to just make a lot of noise for each other outside a very tightly defined area. 

Which brings me to this question: now that everything else, like TV, has gone digital, would it not be possible to expand FM to say, 108.9 for example, like they did with the so-called X-band on AM (1610-1710) to allow for more stations? Or is that being used by other services?
 

     Thread Starter
 

March 21, 2023 4:11 pm  #6


Re: The Two GTA FM Stations You May Not Know Exist

The Milton one really is the one that loses.    You can hardly get the signal in Milton due to CJSA.   CJSA has height vs Milton's station being very low to the ground. CJSA also broadcasts in HD, and Milton does not.    (they should actually consider it, as radios with HD flip over to CJSA where the signals get mixed).    The Milton station really should have found a different frequency. Even one frequency up or down would fix a lot of the issue within Milton itself..   Financially it has to be very limited for them to make money from their own home base. 
 

 

March 22, 2023 9:22 am  #7


Re: The Two GTA FM Stations You May Not Know Exist

101.1 is taken up by stations in nearby Barrie and Fergus (The Grand) and also Fort Erie; 101.5 has Shelburne and Hamilton (Peterborough less of a problem). I think upwards of 108 might have aeronautical uses, but maybe that's changed ... I'd stand corrected by someone who actually knows. 162'ish does have weather stations.

 

March 22, 2023 10:07 am  #8


Re: The Two GTA FM Stations You May Not Know Exist

The next time I am out in Oakville, I will try to pick up 101.3 in Milton.

 

March 22, 2023 10:12 am  #9


Re: The Two GTA FM Stations You May Not Know Exist

RadioActive wrote:

Which brings me to this question: now that everything else, like TV, has gone digital, would it not be possible to expand FM to say, 108.9 for example, like they did with the so-called X-band on AM (1610-1710) to allow for more stations? Or is that being used by other services?
 

108 - 137 MHz is the air band used by air navigation and air traffic control.  54 to 88 MHz is where you want to go.  That's the TV band used by (former?) TV channels 2 to 6.
 

Last edited by mjf (March 22, 2023 10:13 am)

 

March 22, 2023 10:35 am  #10


Re: The Two GTA FM Stations You May Not Know Exist

The question is who'd want them? It would take too long to achieve any kind of critical mass in terms of getting the radios out there.

 

March 22, 2023 4:36 pm  #11


Re: The Two GTA FM Stations You May Not Know Exist

I thought 101.3 was seeking a power increase shortly after being on air.... This is when it was owned by MyFM.  If I recall the application/request was denied...


 

 

March 22, 2023 5:40 pm  #12


Re: The Two GTA FM Stations You May Not Know Exist

The application was approved and implemented.  The antenna was rotated 30 degrees and the ERP increased to 2 kW.

 

March 22, 2023 7:17 pm  #13


Re: The Two GTA FM Stations You May Not Know Exist

do you have 91.7 CHES-FM Erin on your list?

 

 

March 22, 2023 7:38 pm  #14


Re: The Two GTA FM Stations You May Not Know Exist

thanks for the update.

I cut down thru Milton this morning and tuned in 101.3. Their signal still has some weak areas to the west by Steeles Ave. and Tremaine Rd., and West on Derry Rd out to Guelph Line.   The signal really dropped off at Derry and Guelph Line.  Programming wise it was like an mp3 player on shuffle, peppered with frequent IDs / imaging spots. Didn't hear many commercials...
"
I thought the CRTC frowned on the "back door" approach to technical parameter changes... kinda like get on the air with a less than ideal signal, then plead for a power increase and pattern adjustment at a later date...



 

 

March 22, 2023 7:43 pm  #15


Re: The Two GTA FM Stations You May Not Know Exist

Glen Warren wrote:

I thought the CRTC frowned on the "back door" approach to technical parameter changes... kinda like get on the air with a less than ideal signal, then plead for a power increase and pattern adjustment at a later date...

 

Only if it's an obvious ploy to "back door" a station into another market. 

 

March 22, 2023 7:45 pm  #16


Re: The Two GTA FM Stations You May Not Know Exist

In Phase wrote:

do you have 91.7 CHES-FM Erin on your list?

No, but it probably should be. I know the FM band in the GTA is overly-squeezed for space, but I'm not sure of the wisdom of licensing so many low powered stations that cause interference with other outlets. Especially when almost nobody in the communities they serve even know about they exist. 

Although in the case of CHES, there's at least a reason it exists. It was founded after the major blackout in August 2003. In the middle of a heatwave, the town arranged for water to be given to townsfolk, but with no electricity and no radio station to spread the word, very few people knew about it. CHES was presented as a solution. 

How many still listen or know it's there is another story altogether. 

     Thread Starter
 

March 22, 2023 7:49 pm  #17


Re: The Two GTA FM Stations You May Not Know Exist

CKMO was once the set of call letters for 1150 in Hamilton when they became Oldies 1150 in February 1992. A little over a year later they reverted back to the original CKOC call letters.


PJ


ClassicHitsOnline.com...If you enjoy hearing the same 200 songs over and over again...listen to the other guys!
 

March 22, 2023 7:58 pm  #18


Re: The Two GTA FM Stations You May Not Know Exist

I always thought that was one of the dumbest changes in Ontario radio history. CKOC was a heritage call letter set that everyone in Hamilton knew about, dating back to its sign-on in 1922. (I believe it's officially the longest continuously operated station in Canada to this day.)

I know CKMO supposedly stood for "More Oldies" but it had no history with listeners and was a bad idea from the get-go IMHO.

It lasted from February 1992 to April 1993 before reverting back. They're lucky no one grabbed the original call letters in that year. They're still CKOC to this day, although as an all-business station, you rarely hear them mention it. 

     Thread Starter
 

March 23, 2023 7:44 am  #19


Re: The Two GTA FM Stations You May Not Know Exist

RadioActive wrote:

I always thought that was one of the dumbest changes in Ontario radio history. CKOC was a heritage call letter set that everyone in Hamilton knew about, dating back to its sign-on in 1922. (I believe it's officially the longest continuously operated station in Canada to this day.)

I know CKMO supposedly stood for "More Oldies" but it had no history with listeners and was a bad idea from the get-go IMHO.

It lasted from February 1992 to April 1993 before reverting back. They're lucky no one grabbed the original call letters in that year. They're still CKOC to this day, although as an all-business station, you rarely hear them mention it. 

I remember talking to Nevin Grant about that one time. He said the reason management chose to do that (and I assume he meant management higher than himself) was because they believed the CKOC call letters were closely associated with being a "kids' radio station", and they wanted to shed that image as they were going after a more adult audience. What they later discovered was that the CKOC call letters meant a lot to multiple generations of kids (much like CHUM), particularly the ones that had grown up and were now the audience they were trying to attract.

Nevin also told me an anecdote about him being at some type of dinner function around that time which included the then-mayor of Hamilton, Bob Morrow. He said that Mr. Morrow had introduced him as "Nevin Grant, the program director of CKMO Radio in Hamilton," to which he then added to Nevin, "But you know...it'll always be CKOC to me!!" And so, CKOC it once again became in the early part of 1993.


PJ
 


ClassicHitsOnline.com...If you enjoy hearing the same 200 songs over and over again...listen to the other guys!