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SOWNY » HD Radio In Toronto » Yesterday 12:42 pm

markow202
Replies: 60

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Skywave wrote:

The plan is to use the new antenna for both the analog and digital signals.  Early implementations of IBOC sometimes used separate antennas for the digital component, but this does not work very well.  IBOC digital signals actually cause interference to the host analog FM signal, even when using the same antenna..  This interference is tolerable at injection ratios of up to -13 dBc per sideband (-10 dB overall).  But if a separate antenna is used this ratio will vary considerably because the centre of radiation and the vertical patterns don't match.  When CKFM and CHUM first tested HD, the HD component only was fed into the single bay antenna at the bottom of the Channel 9 aperture.  The analog signal was transmitted by the 5 bay FM antenna below.  It was predicted beforehand that concentric donuts of interference would exist in the downtown core, and the actual tests determined that these zones of interference were unacceptable.  So CKFM is transmitting both signals from the single bay antenna at reduced ERP on an interim basis (shown as TO "temporary operation" in the ISED database),

Great info and knowledge again.  I’m guessing feeding two stations like that into a single bay definately caused it to melt back in 2017.  That engineer missed the boat somewhere.

SOWNY » HD Radio In Toronto » June 19, 2021 3:34 am

markow202
Replies: 60

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In regards to the safety 6 regulation codes, is the now called “sky pod” formely spacedeck, actually safe this whole time with master fm literally above their heads?

SOWNY » HD Radio In Toronto » June 18, 2021 4:37 pm

markow202
Replies: 60

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In Phase wrote:

RadioActive wrote:

One of them was City's room (or whatever it was) on the CN Tower.  I still remember how it ended. Frankish started poking around in the place and pretended to pull out a wire, asking, "I wonder what this does?", which sent the screen to static and snow for about 5 secs. He then put it back, saying something like, "I guess we know now!"

one more photo - the original CITY-TV transmitter at the CN Tower

https://i.ibb.co/nPpkgzR/Original-CITY-TV-transmitter.jpg

lots of great movies and epic shows came out of that!  Unlike now...

SOWNY » HD Radio In Toronto » June 18, 2021 3:54 pm

markow202
Replies: 60

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Skywave wrote:

My understanding is that the new Master FM antenna will occupy the aperture formerly used by CBLT Channel 5.  This will raise the centre of radiation by about 34 metres.  The Class C stations operating at 40 kW max ERP (for Class C equivalence) can reduce ERP to 32.5 kW.  This relocation has several benefits:
1) increases the distance to the Skypod, thereby reducing Safety Code 6 radiation.
2) lower transmitter output powers.  
3)increased headroom for the combiner and the antenna harness and radiators.

The CN tower master antenna is rated at a maximum of 150 kW per half..  The combiner is certainly at its limit, and in any event my understanding is that the bandpass curves were less than ideal for passing HD sidebands. A very important consideration with hybrid digital is the peak breakdown voltage which occurs when the digital carriers all add up.  For hybrid digital operation, the limiting factor for transmission lines and antenna harnesses is not so much the average power rating but rather the peak breakdown voltage.  This is a function of both the number of transmitters AND the power output of each transmitter.

Further to another question, CFTO-DT uses part of the original Channel 9 antenna, with the dipoles rotated from horizontal to add a vertical component, resulting in elliptical polarization.

Will this be the actual plan?  It does make perfect sense. Coverage might be even better!  Also, where did Bell stick their new HD radio antenna which im told is what caused that smoldering mess in 2017?

SOWNY » HD Radio In Toronto » June 18, 2021 3:53 pm

markow202
Replies: 60

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In Phase wrote:

I was able to find a few photos in my library that might be of interest:

photo 1 - looking down, from the very top of the CN Tower mast, at a single panel of the original CITY-TV antenna.  It is located in the top aperture on the CN Tower (the red section).  The outer radome can be seen on the left and right side of the photo.  It is very tight up there (only 5 foot diameter).  There are some fine lines in the image due to RF radiation (from other TV transmitters).  This antenna is now out of service due to the repack.

photo 2 - a view (from 1979) looking down, from the CITY-TV aperture, into what was designated as "future antenna space".

photo 3 - an internal view, looking down, into the FM antenna section of the mast.  You will note there is a fair amount of space in this section.  I have highlighted a fellow climber in yellow, standing on a rest transition section, for reference.  A number of transmission lines can be seen along with a "spider" splitter to feed one of the tiers of the FM antenna.

photo 4 - a view of the top of one of the FM antenna dipoles.  The wire mesh, in the lower section of the photo, and behind the antenna acts as a reflector.  The inside, and curvature of the radome can be seen here.

https://i.ibb.co/ChhQdxq/Photo-1.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/qWSJwxz/Photo-2.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/bPB8jHd/Photo-3.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/JdJffTg/Photo-4.jpg

 

Wow thanks so much for sharing these and the info.  Post more stuff if you have the time   Im always facinated in the enginerring of the CN tower behind the scenes. 

SOWNY » HD Radio In Toronto » June 18, 2021 11:55 am

markow202
Replies: 60

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Wow great indepth info as always Tvguy!  Have you been or worked on CN yourself?

SOWNY » Hear Jewel 92 In Brantford Rebrand As “Lite 92” » June 18, 2021 11:09 am

markow202
Replies: 8

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The Jewel name is pretty unique.  How many times is "lite" going to be used on FM stations.  Its almost redundant but, it does explain the format right off the top in that case. Also, saying "southern ontarios lite favourites" might hint at 88.5 also changing.

SOWNY » Best music app? » June 17, 2021 10:50 am

markow202
Replies: 10

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I currently went with Apple Music, especially with their launch of lossless audio (cd quality).  Spotify has a better discovery of music however the sound quality apple always had when using their devices and their music app was always top notch and even better now. 

SOWNY » HD Radio In Toronto » June 17, 2021 10:47 am

markow202
Replies: 60

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torontostan wrote:

Juggie1 wrote:

Biggest issue with FCP is Safety Code 6! With the current load of rf stations including tv, fm, and communications companies, the rf level is at or just below the level where power reductions would start happening. Adding stations up there would further reduce the current power levels of existing stations and may even mean that the top floors may not be useable.

Also, FCP is just under 1000 feet and the CN master fm antenna is just under 1600 feet up! That height difference means much better reach at a much lower power level and a big hydro savings! Also lower maintenance costs at CN tower as only one antenna system to maintain. FCP would have to either spend lots of money for a common antenna system or each station would have to put big filters in to prevent reradiation issues!

Very interesting! I assume no FCP broadcasters are currently inhibited by these regulations? As in, are any operating at a lower power to limit overall radiation? 

I'm shocked people are allowed to work on the upper floors full-time as it stands now.... I wouldn't be surprised if the levels of radiation result in higher cancer rates among those BMO staffers. 

I guess all I'm wondering is if it would be cheaper (and easier) to move the CN FMs to FCP (and possibly include even more FMs on an Onmi-Directional Master FM system there), rather than upgrading the almost 50 year old systems at CN in their limited space and inaccessible spire. 
 

Oh I get you now, in terms of the accessability in the tower.  Well, I still find it strange how when it was built, the white radome on the antenna was installed first, then the antennas were put into place.  So im guessing a reverse order could be in process.  Who knows.  Incredible its working full time for that long with literally no issues.

 

SOWNY » HD Radio In Toronto » June 16, 2021 5:34 pm

markow202
Replies: 60

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torontostan wrote:

How much coverage would be lost if the CN tower FMs moved to FCP and increased their power to compensate for lost height? There's also that new skyscraper at Yonge & Bloor that will actually be taller than FCP. Instead of a costly Master re-build, could we see those who want an upgrade move altogether? 

With the TV stations it always made sense to be at the southernmost possible point in Toronto, so that people pointing their antennas towards Buffalo would get Toronto stations as well. This isn't the case for FM, so I wonder if much would be lost with a move to FCP or Y&B. 

Also how much interference will occur with all these super-tall condos and office towers popping up in the last few years? The CN tower is slowly becoming a less desirable place to have an antenna. 

FCP was never as good as CN but yes that could be due to power.  I think that roof would also be super jammed if this occured.  CN is still the tallest over the entire city. but, good analogy I thought about this once.

Why is the CN Tower a less desirable place?

SOWNY » HD Radio In Toronto » June 16, 2021 10:33 am

markow202
Replies: 60

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Question, is CHUM FM still on the Master FM antenna or are they and Virgin from what I heard, on a new seperate antenna? (despite only one running HD)

SOWNY » New Tobermory Radio Station Rocks the Bruce » June 15, 2021 4:56 pm

markow202
Replies: 18

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turkeytop wrote:

markow202 wrote:

Used to be TV up there with CKCO repeater in Wiarton/Lions Head and was a flamethrower in the analog days!  

So, I suppose it's gone now. When we left that area in 1996 there was local coverage from CTV, CBC, Global and TVO. I guess all of them are gone now. Someone without a dish won't get any TV.

An interesting way to go lol

https://blog.fagstein.com/2014/08/09/ckco-wiarton/

SOWNY » New Tobermory Radio Station Rocks the Bruce » June 15, 2021 11:54 am

markow202
Replies: 18

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Used to be TV up there with CKCO repeater in Wiarton/Lions Head and was a flamethrower in the analog days!  

SOWNY » Corus Unveils Global's New Fall Line-up » June 10, 2021 11:05 am

markow202
Replies: 12

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torontostan wrote:

markow202 wrote:

Their news broadcast I watched the other night too and it wasnt good eitheir.  Something about it and the anchors I didnt like.  Atleast with CTV they feel more local and the anchors are more friendly feeling.  Global and CBC news I stay totally away from, but thats just me. 
 

Global news needs to get rid of the virtual set..... it makes the newscast less legitimate in my mind. CTV obviously has the best look and feel, and the CBC's evening news might as well be done out of the supply closet. They're trying to pull off the city news anchor "in the newsroom" approach, except the CBC's Toronto newsroom looks like a call centre. With that said.. CHCH may soon have them all beat. 

Well said....actually yeah CHCH although I rarely watch that newscast, I have seen it and its the "homecooked meal" of traditional newscasts.  The way it should be. 

SOWNY » Corus Unveils Global's New Fall Line-up » June 9, 2021 3:54 pm

markow202
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paterson1 wrote:

markow202 wrote:

Bunch of boring crap.

I agree, and too many police procedurals.  Too much of anything is not good, and network TV is at the saturation point with cop shows in my opinion.  I guess like music on radio, procedurals must "score" well.  

CTV will have their upfronts tomorrow and I believe they are the last.  So far it doesn't sound like a very exciting fall line up for any of the broadcast networks.  The fall upfronts in May for the big 4 US OTA networks was a snore city- non event. The media coverage was way down from previous years.

I agree.   Too much of a "dark" lineup of shows.  Global was always kind of like that.  Back in the 90s I remember atleast they were good with the sitcoms and stuff for the younger, but then again all networks were.  Their news broadcast I watched the other night too and it wasnt good eitheir.  Something about it and the anchors I didnt like.  Atleast with CTV they feel more local and the anchors are more friendly feeling.  Global and CBC news I stay totally away from, but thats just me. 
 

SOWNY » CBC Music » June 7, 2021 11:13 am

markow202
Replies: 31

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I occasionally listen to CBC Music when im in the mood for that indie-hipster format and want to hear new stuff from the genre.   Their show "Drive" with Rich Terfry is one of the best. 

SOWNY » 680 News & Other Rogers Stns. Being Rebranded As "CityNews" » June 4, 2021 11:17 am

markow202
Replies: 19

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That sucks - "680 news" has a better ring to it and its well known.   Its almost like changing "CHUM" now. 

SOWNY » Are Oldies Stns. Not Playing These Hits Because People Now Hate Them? » May 27, 2021 3:33 pm

markow202
Replies: 7

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Id have to listen to the tracks to judge them however, just the titles of the songs alone in that list, all if not most would get banned these days due to some millennial being offended or the titles being derogatory.  

A year or so ago society couldnt handle "baby its cold outside"  nevermind "my ding a ling" or "one hell of a woman" 

SOWNY » Whatever Happened To Buffalo Radio Reception In Toronto? » May 20, 2021 10:50 am

markow202
Replies: 16

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I find that the stations come in fine - maybe not the way it was before but they do come in decent on a good tuner or car.  WKSE however has been killed by our 98.7 

SOWNY » 102.9 Bounces into a new format » May 19, 2021 11:46 am

markow202
Replies: 47

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Paul Jeffries wrote:

RadioAaron wrote:

paterson1 wrote:

Good point, yes a real format change for K-LITE, heavier sound for them now, and a gamble since they were usually #1 in Hamilton as you mentioned.

I think they'll win the gamble. The classic hits mix is actually probably more appealing to a lot of long-time K-LITE P1's, and Boom 97.3 is absolutely huge in Toronto's surrounding markets if you look beyond local stations in the ratings. 

Boom 97.3 doesn't have the greatest signal in the Hamilton area too, so that'll probably be an added bonus for 102.9.



PJ

How can their signal be bad in Hamilton?  Its just down the pond. 
 

SOWNY » Stupid Question #46: Why Can't They Expand The FM Band? » May 18, 2021 1:12 pm

markow202
Replies: 14

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Juggie1 wrote:

Unfortunately the most recent repack brought back vhf low tv channels in some areas of the United States. This puts the move of fm below 88 almost impossible.

I was involved with the Bell Media change of CFTO from 9 to 8 and saw the list of vhf channels that were being used across North America in the most recent repack and was surprised to see some locations reactivate the low vhf band again

Question on this - im guessing you worked up on the CN?  Is CFTO still using their old antenna from 76?

SOWNY » 102.9 Bounces into a new format » May 18, 2021 1:05 pm

markow202
Replies: 47

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Interesting - I streamed what was The Dock and is now Bounce as noted above.  The announcer "Jay Stevens" is on all channels - so did more get fired locally or maybe this is just the first day. 

The playlist is awesome. 

SOWNY » 102.9 Bounces into a new format » May 18, 2021 1:01 pm

markow202
Replies: 47

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Listening to 102.9 now - Blue Rodeo "How long" is being played.  The Dock 104.1 is not the Dock anymore?

SOWNY » Is This List Of All HD Radio In Canada Complete? » May 3, 2021 5:34 pm

markow202
Replies: 27

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Hows HD looking for the CN Tower stuff?

SOWNY » Format switch for 98.5 the Jewel?? » May 3, 2021 1:32 pm

markow202
Replies: 44

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The "Lite" attempt will be more like a CHFI kind of thing which again is so overdone.  Shopping mall dentist playlist mostlikely consisting of Michael Buble and Adele.  Id rather watch paint dry.

Jewel can go from playing Bill Withers, to Eddie Money to The beatles to Jann Arden in a span of 20 mins and no repeats which make it much better while sounding light and unique. 

SOWNY » Format switch for 98.5 the Jewel?? » May 3, 2021 10:18 am

markow202
Replies: 44

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Hope they also dont do it for Newmarket.  My parents listen to Jewel 88.5 and honestly I got kind of caught onto it too.  The playlist is old indeed but unique and the songs arent that boring.  

SOWNY » CRTC Approves New Religious Station At 105.3 FM In Scarborough » April 28, 2021 3:43 pm

markow202
Replies: 11

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mace wrote:

No signal on 105.3? Not even CFCA Kitchener?

Its very weak even in the west end from Kitchener (used to be much stronger) so doubt it would be a problem.

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