sowny.net | The Southern Ontario/WNY Radio-TV Forum


You are not logged in. Would you like to login or register?

June 25, 2018 9:41 am  #1


Should You Go to College To Learn The Radio Biz Or Just Work In It?

Ordinarily, an article from an obscure Schenectady, N.Y. newspaper would never end up being linked here. But this story brought up a debate I've been hearing for years - is it worth going to a Humber, a Ryerson or a Fanshawe-type college to learn broadcasting and get a degree or just work in the biz and learn a lot more than any school can teach you? 

The teen featured in the paper decided to forgo college of any kind so she could keep working at a local radio station. She got her foot in the door at 17 and, as so often happens, it was because of who she knew - her father is their news director. But management feels she has real talent and they wound up giving her her own show on weekends. 

"[College is] expensive, time consuming," [she explains in the story.] "The thing is, you could be going out and getting a job in a specific field that you want and try to work your way up to a job that you want. Whereas, with a college degree, you might not necessarily be starting at the bottom, but you're still going to have to work your way up no matter what you do, and you'll have debt, and you won't necessarily be able to get to the top anyway."

Teen radio personality bucks college for workplace 

Mike Stafford repeatedly used to mention he dropped out of Ryerson to work at an actual radio station, and he's become very successful without an official college diploma. I also attended Ry-High's Radio & TV course when I was younger, but by then I'd already worked at a few stations and I discovered some of the professors were asking me how to do things. I always thought that was odd, considering I was paying them to supposedly teach me. Still, it was through the school that I found my first real job and from there went on to better things. 

On the other hand, broadcasting is a risky career, especially these days and it's always a good idea to have something to fall back on if it doesn't work out. Of the hundreds of people I went to college with, maybe a handful are in the business. (Most went on to something that actually pays for a living!) 

So given the collected wisdom here, what would be your advice to someone passionate about broadcasting but just starting out? Spend the bucks and get a degree? Or leave the halls of academia behind and just go for it? Things are definitely different in the industry now and I'd be curious to know if you had to do it again, would you do it the same way?

 

June 25, 2018 11:50 am  #2


Re: Should You Go to College To Learn The Radio Biz Or Just Work In It?

Interesting notion. Times have certainly changed since some of us on the board first entered the biz. In the past, one could get hired without (mostly) any formal education and have an overwhelmingly fabulous career. Sadly, in my opinion, those days are, for the most part, gone. Now, the mega-HR departments are more interested in your degree(s) and time spent working in the northernmost regions of one-horse towns before they open your demo.

Now, I have a mixed feeling about this. Most mid-to-large markets no longer have the time or personnel to spoon feed all the directives necessary to work alone right from day one. But, think about how much more on-air types have to do today: they are live on one station, tracking one (or more) others, working the socials, keeping up with added demands of their position, hitting the on-locations, and, and, and..... It would take some kind of savant to successfully and thoroughly know all that without formal tutelage. 

The trouble with most broadcast "schools" (with the possible exception of Ryerson), is they are being taught on outdated equipment, software and protocols. Sure, it's "just enough" to get by, but it isn't perfect. And, then, we have the age-old "how do I get experience if nobody hires me" situation?

Interesting, indeed.

 

June 25, 2018 1:23 pm  #3


Re: Should You Go to College To Learn The Radio Biz Or Just Work In It?

difference is... that girl has probably already spent a couple of years at the station, playing in the prod studio or as a board op... she already knows about as much as she would ultimately learn after 2 years at humber.

a radio diploma or degree at this point would be of little value to her.  take business or something complimentary for sales/management, while staying on-air.  Its a way to keep evolving in radio, and come out with transferable skills. 

at least that was my experience going back 30 years and mixing tapes at 2am in the prod studio as a 14 yr old.

 

June 25, 2018 1:28 pm  #4


Re: Should You Go to College To Learn The Radio Biz Or Just Work In It?

Well grilled cheese and cGrant are right.  When I started in Radio, I hung around the radio station.  Got to know the all night guy.  Try and find a all night radio show today.  When the all night guy (Ron Morey now one of the biggest voices in the U.S.) quit and the PD was looking for a replacement, Morey pointed to me.  Told the PD that he had been letting me on the air in the wee small hours and I was OK.  Terry Mann hired me; on the spot!  $75.00 bucks a week.  Lived with my parents thank goodness.  Well that was 1966.

For the past few decades PD's are looking for people that have taken; or are taking a course.  Ryerson was the only place to go; when I started in Radio.  Then came (in no particular order) Fanshaw, Humber, Seneca and I guess Mohawk.  The first person I saw hired out of Humber was the great Wayne Webster at Q-107.  He's still in the business today as MD at Boom; but not before years at The Mix, CHUM-FM and of course Q.  Don't believe he ever finished the course : >)  He was and is that good.

In other words, today you need to have at least finished a course; or are currently enrolled in one.  The really good one's never get to finish the course; because if they are interning, they are hired almost immediately.

 

 

June 25, 2018 1:33 pm  #5


Re: Should You Go to College To Learn The Radio Biz Or Just Work In It?

splunge wrote:

a radio diploma or degree at this point would be of little value to her.  take business or something complimentary for sales/management, while staying on-air.  Its a way to keep evolving in radio, and come out with transferable skills. 

RadioActive wrote:

 She got her foot in the door at 17 and, it was because of who she knew - her father is their news director.. 

True, but nepotism is responsible for her achievement. THAT should be the story here. To further introduce "what ifs" is moot here.

With respect, look at the equipment she is working with -- this is not a huge station with progressive equipment. It still would be a bit of a challenge for her to effortlessly transfer these skills to a larger market cluster. (no offence meant).
 

 

June 25, 2018 1:46 pm  #6


Re: Should You Go to College To Learn The Radio Biz Or Just Work In It?

When it comes to radio or TV, it’s hard to argue that experience is the best teacher.
 
Knowing how to use a board before I started in college was a huge boost to me. Looking back (as Don Daynard might say) I’m not sure how helpful taking the course was overall, beyond getting that big tip off about a job opening at one of the big Toronto stations. (That first interview did not go well at all, but I still landed the gig anyway. But that is a story for another day.)
 
My problem with the course (and I’m talking the late 70s here, so I know a lot has changed) was twofold. The first thing I remember involved putting the equipment over the teaching. In those days, we still used expensive reel-to-reel machines, tapes and grease pencils to mark the edit points. I never really knew how to do it beforehand, but it turned out the way they taught us was completely wrong.
 
I remember landing that first job and attempting to make an edit the way Ryerson’s instructors showed us. The people working at the station looked at me and said “what the hell are you doing?” It turns out the school had deliberately been showing us incorrectly because they wanted to stop wear and tear on the heads of the machine, which were pricey to replace with so much use, and so they gave us an “alternate” method – one that was completely useless in the real world.
 
I quickly learned how to do it right, and became something of an expert. But no thanks to them and it was pretty embarrassing, even for a newcomer.
 
And then there was the day we were in an assembly hall, when a person who worked in radio came in to talk to us. When it came to question and answer time, one student stood up and asked what seemed like a sensible query: just how hard is it to get that first job?
 
The woman (and I have no memory of who it was, just that she worked for a Toronto radio outlet) started out OK, but at one point got carried away and admitted to the assembled multitude that “getting that first job isn’t easy and there many not be that many positions open.”
 
She got a withering ‘if-looks-could-kill’ glance from the instructor, before muttering for all to hear, “I guess I wasn’t supposed to say that.” It was hard to believe anything that was spoken after and I realized she’d been told to talk up the positives of working in broadcasting, even if that meant lying to those eager young faces about some of the negatives.
 
And that’s about when I lost faith in the course, although I did graduate, because I wanted the degree. Fortunately, I was already working part time in a radio station’s newsroom by then and was learning far more there than I ever did in a single class. (Not to mention the incredible characters who worked at the place, which was an education in itself.)
 
I don’t begrudge going to Ryerson and I hope things are vastly different there now. But talk about bursting a bubble. It’s been more than 40 years and I still remember that moment in the lecture hall.

     Thread Starter
 

June 25, 2018 1:51 pm  #7


Re: Should You Go to College To Learn The Radio Biz Or Just Work In It?

Oh and by the way, I'm pretty sure things are different these days, but when I started, the only question I was ever asked was "where else have you worked and what's your experience?"

Not one prospective employer I had ever asked about my education or if I'd gone to college. They just wanted to know what I knew and how it could help them fill their opening.  

     Thread Starter
 

June 25, 2018 3:40 pm  #8


Re: Should You Go to College To Learn The Radio Biz Or Just Work In It?

RadioActive wrote:

I'm pretty sure things are different these days, but when I started, the only question I was ever asked was "where else have you worked and what's your experience?" 

Ah, yes, times HAVE changed. Drastically. But, it's still same old-same old: how does one get the experience without being hired? And how do you get a foot in, without experience?

No offence, please, but comparing the 70's to today isn't even on the outer regions of the spectrum. Seriously. We all have "heard" of someone "lucking" into a shift at a station "just off the street". Most of those stories are, c'mon, exaggerations of the reality of the event.

Yes, I've been hard on people here about the past vs today, but, the difference is real. Very.
 

 

June 25, 2018 10:39 pm  #9


Re: Should You Go to College To Learn The Radio Biz Or Just Work In It?

Well of course, if college is too expensive for you, there's always this:

(Circa 1967)

     Thread Starter
 

June 26, 2018 12:42 am  #10


Re: Should You Go to College To Learn The Radio Biz Or Just Work In It?

The broadcast education industry has turned into just that.  Ask the vast number of people who were teaching broadcasting at the college level why they have quit.  It's just turned into a sausage factory, grinding out "graduates" for mostly non existent jobs.  My classes usually were 40 "students" starting in the 70s.  The screening for acceptance was abysmal, focusing on high school grades, not personality, general knowledge, talent etc.  The job was simply to put bums in seats to collect the per student grants for the college and the tuition fees.  You knew that out of every class you had, you'd be lucky to get two people who actually would end up having a career in broadcasting, rising to the heights where they actually could make a living at it.  Most just thought it a glamorous easy fun rewarding thing to do but ended up being disappointed when they realized and so did prospective employers, that they didn't have the chops.  It's what caused me to stop doing this when you were no longer permitted to fail anyone, even if they did no work and produced no results for given assignments.  Even the award winning and my best radio news friend quit when the bureaucracy and idiotcracy became totally overbearing and time consuming when compared to actual instruction time.  There are fewer and fewer jobs in the business every day, whether it be radio, television or print journalism that continue to be taught simply to bring money into the college system.  Talent, smarts, the ability to communicate and to write brilliant clear copy should be the only qualifiers to enter such programs and to give yourself a chance at succeeding.  One of my jobs was to read the entrance application essays of prospective students, many of whom supposedly graduated high school with honours English.  Atrocious spelling, punctuation, grammar, syntax, improper sentence structure, more like reading a teen's texts to his or her friends.  But the only deal was, get us the 40 paying students to fill the class and pay the bills.
 

 

June 26, 2018 12:55 am  #11


Re: Should You Go to College To Learn The Radio Biz Or Just Work In It?

Broadcasting school is okay for the technical knowledge, but it can't teach talent, love of music, give you the drive and personality to sit in front of a mic, and perform an augmented version of yourself for public consumption.

I fell into radio by being "discovered" working in a record store. One of the jocks from CHUM would call the store once a week to see what was selling from our top 30. We'd have a good talk about music. I got a call at the store from their PD one day, we chatted, he liked my voice, and invited me to the station to audition. I got the job doing midnights, but quit after a few weeks, the pay was crap and the music was worse, Lionel Richie, and typical CHUM AM music. A few months later, I called up Q, explained my brief CHUM gig, met with the PD, and got offered midnights which I accepted, the pay and music were much better. I learned on the fly how to cue up a record (I preferred a one-third rotation) do a mix, check the levels, run the board etc. It was terrifying at first, then a hell of a good time once I got acclimated to the radio life.

I was an actor in university taking theatre when I working in the record store, and switched to radio, so performing was part of my DNA, and the fact that I had a natural voice for radio, and was a huge fan of radio and music sure helped. Plus all the guys at Q were great helping me through the first few months and my steep learning curve.

I also worked my butt off, reading everything I could get my hands on about rock music, and would go home after a shift and listen to my air-check tape before passing out.

Radio's not for the faint hearted, school or no school.

Last edited by betaylored (June 26, 2018 2:40 am)

 

June 26, 2018 4:13 am  #12


Re: Should You Go to College To Learn The Radio Biz Or Just Work In It?

The other important question is, does it matter which school? 
Loyalist vs Humber... etc 


RadioWiz & RadioQuiz are NOT the same person. 
RadioWiz & THE Wiz are NOT the same person.

 
 

June 26, 2018 11:18 am  #13


Re: Should You Go to College To Learn The Radio Biz Or Just Work In It?

betaylored wrote:

Broadcasting school is okay for the technical knowledge, but it can't teach talent, love of music, give you the drive and personality to sit in front of a mic, and perform an augmented version of yourself for public consumption.

In the greater respect, WHICH school of ANY profession teaches passion and drive? WHICH school of ANY profession provides instruction beyond the technical aspect of the skill? How much time is spent in medical school teaching "bedside manner" (or passion, or augmented versions of ourselves for public consumption)?

Why is it, then, that we expect "broadcast" school to be different?
 

 

June 26, 2018 3:04 pm  #14


Re: Should You Go to College To Learn The Radio Biz Or Just Work In It?

I'd like to toss in my 2 cents on this topic. I believe if someone has "that something" that you hear in a demo, it's worth investigating and spending the time because you BOTH benefit. Years ago, I needed a part time jock - put out a post and in return, got a pile of demos. I've always liked the idea of giving someone a chance like I was given years ago by JJ Johnson - so I make it a mission to return the favor, when I can.

One of the demos I received was one that was made by a woman at her kitchen table. It was poorly produced and sounded bad, but she "had something" in her voice. She had ZERO radio experience (no school) but a ton of passion and energy. I invited her in for an interview, explained our station's philosophy and tossed her on air for an overnight audition. I could tell after the first audition, she still "had something" worth investigating so I put her on for another night after some coaching.  

Long story short, I hired her part-time and she totally bloomed on air for the 2+ years she was with us. I'm quite proud of Meredith Shaw as she's now a full time personality at CHUM and is killing it in many other (somewhat related) areas professionally. So... it CAN be done as long as someone's willing to take a chance and find the time to coach the talent. Oh, you also need someone who has the passion, drive, sees the big picture and has the talent to push through and make it happen for themselves. 

As programmers we need to find the time to coach talent and take some chances - we owe it to the industry, AND it's part of our job! When you can witness someone transform/grow because of hard work and passion, it's an extremely rewarding moment.

Last edited by boom boy (June 26, 2018 3:23 pm)

 

June 26, 2018 11:06 pm  #15


Re: Should You Go to College To Learn The Radio Biz Or Just Work In It?

If she's smart she'll keep with the job and try and squeeze in a college or university degree at the same time, even if it takes longer than usual. It's a helluva workload, but if she can get and keep the radio gig she probably has the maturity and intellect to  benefit from post-secondary. Radio is a precarious career, and while success in radio may lead to opportunities down the road, an education will help cement things. And she can help manage her debt from having work. (Not that a couple years off school will make a difference; that can be a good thing, but so long as she doesn't forgo post-secondary). Post-secondary is particularly helpful not only for career advancement but also for the brain.
 

Last edited by Saul (June 26, 2018 11:06 pm)

 

June 27, 2018 12:02 am  #16


Re: Should You Go to College To Learn The Radio Biz Or Just Work In It?

in my opinion, when it comes to broadcasting (unlike many other "careers"), getting a degree will not put you ahead of any employment line.  more often than not, you'll still start off at the bottom... the very bottom. that doesn't mean you won't initially be required to make an "investment" (in order to get a paying gig down the line)  i'm talking about your time and not your money. being able to entertain (yes entertain) has nothing to do with grades, degrees, or certificates. after all, the "class clown" might be the next on-air star.
 

Last edited by the original hank (June 27, 2018 9:02 am)

 

June 27, 2018 1:41 am  #17


Re: Should You Go to College To Learn The Radio Biz Or Just Work In It?

cGrant wrote:

betaylored wrote:

Broadcasting school is okay for the technical knowledge, but it can't teach talent, love of music, give you the drive and personality to sit in front of a mic, and perform an augmented version of yourself for public consumption.

In the greater respect, WHICH school of ANY profession teaches passion and drive? WHICH school of ANY profession provides instruction beyond the technical aspect of the skill? How much time is spent in medical school teaching "bedside manner" (or passion, or augmented versions of ourselves for public consumption)?

Why is it, then, that we expect "broadcast" school to be different?
 

Agreed, talent and personality are not learned traits mostly, they are natural to each individual.

However, @cgrant, I will take umbrage with that particular position.  It is true that a school is tasked with passing on the book learnin'.  but... it only takes one instructor, or rarely an entire faculty, to pass on enthusiasm, excitement, passion, and drive to students.  it doesn't matter if it's broadcasting, marketing, computers, or even accounting!  any dedicated instructor can instill such motivation and spirit in any student willing to absorb information and the capacity to learn.
 

 

June 27, 2018 12:58 pm  #18


Re: Should You Go to College To Learn The Radio Biz Or Just Work In It?

Hey cGrant, I didn't suggest that broadcasting school could or somehow should "teach talent". My point was that unless you have the basic ingredients for on-air work, broadcast school is a waste of time, unless you want to work in the technical end of the business.

And Splunge you are so right about a good teacher. I had a chance to work with John Neville and John Dunsworth as profs, and they inspired and encouraged me, and I carried the skills they taught me into radio.

Here's a question. What are the requirements for getting in to the broadcasting programs at Ryerson, Fanshawe, and Humber?

You have LSAT's for admission to law school, and you have to audition to get into a theatre program... Radio is competitive and demanding, and requires specialized knowledge. I have no idea if you have to audition to get in to the radio program, but should you have to?

Last edited by betaylored (June 27, 2018 2:06 pm)

 

June 27, 2018 2:19 pm  #19


Re: Should You Go to College To Learn The Radio Biz Or Just Work In It?

betaylored wrote:

Hey cGrant, I didn't suggest that broadcasting school could or somehow should "teach talent". My point was that unless you have the basic ingredients for on-air work, broadcast school is a waste of time, unless you want to work in the technical end of the business.

What are the requirements for getting in to the broadcasting programs at Ryerson, Fanshawe, and Humber?

No worries, I got your point - quite valid, of course. But, it's a chicken and egg situation. How does one get the talent without experiencing the full picture of the technical process? And vice versa. It's a difficult situation. Some students will get overwhelmed when they discover that it's simply not flipping on a mic and talking. Seriously. That affects their persona; I've seen it happen. Once they discover that (outside of the CBC), they, alone will not just talk, but also work the socials, track, etc., etc., etc. The drop rate is incredible at the reputable institutions.

http://www.ryersonrta.ca/programs/ma-media-production/admission-requirements
http://www.ryersonrta.ca/programs/ba-media-production/admission-requirements
https://www.fanshawec.ca/programs/brr2-broadcasting-radio/next#group_admission
https://mediastudies.humber.ca/programs/broadcasting-radio.html#SchoolProgramDetails/ProgramAdmissionRequirements
 

 

June 27, 2018 10:34 pm  #20


Re: Should You Go to College To Learn The Radio Biz Or Just Work In It?

Thanks for the requirements cGrant. I went and checked out Fanshawe because that's where a lot of my pals went, and you don't have to audition to get a spot.

I think it would make sense to have two specific curriculum streams, one tech, and one directed at those who want to work on-air, with an audition as a requirement for a place in the on-air class. Tech students would have 70% tech class time, with 30% on-air time, and the "performance" class would have the 70/30 ratio with on-air getting the lion's share, but still getting enough board work so they could work at a station until an on-air position opened up.

A couple of times on the Stafford Show, I remember Mike and the callers discussing the trades/gifted streaming that happened in Ontario high schools years ago, and it seems to have been a practical approach.

Last edited by betaylored (June 27, 2018 10:59 pm)

 

June 27, 2018 10:51 pm  #21


Re: Should You Go to College To Learn The Radio Biz Or Just Work In It?

Neither.  Don't do it.  It's a shrinking and dying industry with no future...as most of the people running it are fools, idiots and losers.  There's no magic.  [Unless you think that homogenization is magic.]  The whole industry has changed.  They don't want to pay decent salaries.  They're more interested in replacing you with someone cheaper than they are in allowing you to be 'there' long enough to build a following and a loyal audience.

Your boss likely doesn't know enough to teach you a gawd dammed thing so?  Rethink this radio dream and get yourself a career...doing something meaningful for a company that knows what it's doing.  Radio is about 3 beats away from becoming a sundial.  What's a sundial?  Same question they'll be asking about radio by the time you're ready to retire.

Wanna talk to people? Drive a bus.  There's more security there too.