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Sat Oct 7 8:00 pm  #1


Indie 88.1 The Latest To Complain It Needs A Power Boost - Or Else

Some here will recall the skepticism that greeted the call by the Evanovs for a power boost to make either Pride-FM or Z103.5 a stronger station in the GTA. Now another relative newcomer to the dial is complaining that no one can hear them. This time, it’s CIND-FM, the station that replaced the old CKLN at 88.1.
 
According to an application filed with the CRTC last week, the owners - Rock 95 Broadcasting - are complaining that all the concrete and steel from the built-up downtown core is killing their signal and that outlying areas north of Highway 7 and in Mississauga near the airport can’t get them clearly enough to listen.
 
And apparently it’s not just all those darn buildings. “For in-vehicle use, we estimate that the signal is unusable for approximately 16% of the total CMA Population,” they argue. And that’s why they want a power boost – even though they’d already been granted one in the past.  
 
Right now, Indie 88 is at 2,100 watts with an ERP of around 4,000. They want it boosted to 4,700 watts which would effectively take it to 13,000. They say they would have asked for more before, but a station in Erin, Ont. – that’s now moved – stopped them.
 
And they warn their financial plan, which was to start turning a profit in Year 3, is in ruins..“…we anticipate that with our current ratings we will be in a loss position for at least the next three years.”  But they believe they could boost profits by at least $1 million if the Commission gives them what they want.
 
And they conclude with this terrific work of fiction. “Although we are an experienced broadcaster, prior to licensing, we did not have experience in large markets. We simply did not foresee the full impact of a marginal signal, nor did we forecast the huge technical and financial disadvantages this places upon our operation.”
   
Here we go again. The station owners presumably knew or should have known about all the propagation problems when they applied for the licence. But suddenly that’s no longer good enough. They’re also reminding the CRTC that they’re a haven for new Canadian talent and how would it look if they weren’t able to provide that?  
 
This is the same kind of blackmail AM 740 used to get their FM repeater at 96.7, threatening to shut the entire station down if they weren’t given the new signal because after all, no one could get 740 - one of the strongest signals in North America.

Now Indie 88.1 wants special consideration, too. I’m sorry for the folks at CIND but despite their ridiculous protestations that “they didn’t know what they were getting into in a large market,” this is just another attempt to change the rules once the game has begun.
 
I’ll be curious to see what the interventions look like and if the CRTC will give into it again. 

Last edited by RadioActive (Sun Oct 8 9:45 am)

 

Sat Oct 7 9:50 pm  #2


Re: Indie 88.1 The Latest To Complain It Needs A Power Boost - Or Else

Wow, after reading the quotes, I now know what radio business speak is for "the dog ate my homework."

The station is pretty damn good to listen to at times.

Seems like money-wise, they, to quote Maxwell Smart, "Missed it by that much..."

 

Sun Oct 8 1:01 am  #3


Re: Indie 88.1 The Latest To Complain It Needs A Power Boost - Or Else

RadioActive wrote:

Some here will recall the skepticism that greeted the call by the Evanovs for a power boost to make either Pride-FM or Hitz-FM a stronger station in the GTA. Now another relative newcomer to the dial is complaining that no one can hear them. This time, it’s CIND-FM, the station that replaced the old CKLN at 88.1.
 

When did Z103 switch back to being Hitz 103? 
 

Last edited by Radiowiz (Sun Oct 8 1:29 am)

 

Sun Oct 8 9:43 am  #4


Re: Indie 88.1 The Latest To Complain It Needs A Power Boost - Or Else

That's what I get for watching that Star Trek time travel episode before posting. As they say in the biz, we'll fix it in editing.

     Thread Starter
 

Sun Oct 8 1:07 pm  #5


Re: Indie 88.1 The Latest To Complain It Needs A Power Boost - Or Else

I tend to agree with their request...I find it hard to get a clear reception north of HWY 7...but one thing that struck me was how financially viable is a "one-off" radio station like this in a major market, filled with big conglomerates?

Bhell, Rogers, Corus have control of multiple radio stations, heck even Evanov group owns 4 properties on the GTA...I'd imagine for a small independent station like this, it would be a struggle, based on that, I'd give them the increase in signal strength!

Good post by the way...thanks!


 


The world would be so good if it weren't for some people...
 

Sun Oct 8 2:42 pm  #6


Re: Indie 88.1 The Latest To Complain It Needs A Power Boost - Or Else

 Radiowiz wrote:
When did Z103 switch back to being Hitz 103? 

Were they ever Hits 103? I remember Hot 103. Was it Hits 103 between Hot 103 and Z103. Why did they use "Z" with the American pronunciation? Trying to copy New York's Z100 - which actually has "Z" in their call letters? C103 I could understand. And I actually remember when they made the big switch from whatever they were before to Z103-big fanfare and promotion, but nothing else changed.

And, of course, there is a Hits-FM - 97-7 HTZ-FM.
 

 

Sun Oct 8 3:42 pm  #7


Re: Indie 88.1 The Latest To Complain It Needs A Power Boost - Or Else

So Radioactive, since you've got a very strong opinion about CIND's power increase, are you going to bother to make your views known to the regulator, or are you just going to complain on this board?

 

Sun Oct 8 4:34 pm  #8


Re: Indie 88.1 The Latest To Complain It Needs A Power Boost - Or Else

REGULATE THE REGULATORS

Radioactive's underlying "view" as you put it, is valid; namely that some broadcasters regularly make promises to regulators that they don't intend to keep & eventually come cap in hand for "relief".    They have been getting away w. it and s/b admired for their ongoing chutzpah.   

Perhaps complaints s/b HAND DELIVERED up to whoever the regulators themselves report. 

 

Last edited by geo (Sun Oct 8 4:35 pm)

 

Sun Oct 8 7:17 pm  #9


Re: Indie 88.1 The Latest To Complain It Needs A Power Boost - Or Else

wait what? Indie88 knew what they were signing up for when they got the licence.  Crying poor now speaks to their lack of business plan when they applied in the first place.

 

Sun Oct 8 7:32 pm  #10


Re: Indie 88.1 The Latest To Complain It Needs A Power Boost - Or Else

I obviously agree with both both geo and splunge. The new theory seems to be "just do or say whatever you have to to get the licence and worry about the rest down the road."

It worked for AM 740.

It worked for CHIN, which now uses its 91.9 FM repeater (which was supposed to be reproducing its AM signal on 1540) to air separate programming there during the daytime. That means it effectively has three stations in Toronto, two on FM and all called "CHIN." (How does that work call letter-wise, exactly?)

Now Evanov/Dufferin Communications is doing the same thing and so is Indie 88.1.

Where does it stop? If you agreed to it in your licence, then stop whining later on that you can't make it. If I take out a car loan knowing I can't possibly keep up with the payments, guess what? They take the car away from me. That's business and I knew what the deal was going in. Or at least I should have.

And as for tvguy's suggestion that I make an intervention myself, I suppose I could, if I didn't feel it would totally be in vain and a complete waste of time. Since when has the Commission EVER listened to a sole representative of the public who has no vested interest in the outcome or arguing solely from a moral standpoint? Unless you're Rogers, Bell or one of the bigger players, your complaint is placed in the file that starts with "G" and ends in "garbage." 

Still, part of the filing rules requires all of them - including the above noted Big Two, along with Corus, Zoomer, Newcap, Durham Radio, and Evanov - to be notified of the request. I'm quite sure they will have quite a bit to say about the idea themselves.

     Thread Starter
 

Sun Oct 8 8:09 pm  #11


Re: Indie 88.1 The Latest To Complain It Needs A Power Boost - Or Else

@ radioactive.  The very reason the CRTC doesn't appear to listen to private letters is because they believe the individual listener/citizen does not care enough to bother writing a thoughtful and informed letter.  Don't just use the CRTC online form, but put it on letterhead, or in a word/pdf.

Get involved if you believe strongly enough.   You've proven yourself knowledgeable around these parts, so go for it.  If no one speaks up, we get Trump.....

 

Sun Oct 8 8:24 pm  #12


Re: Indie 88.1 The Latest To Complain It Needs A Power Boost - Or Else

Storm wrote:

 
Were they ever Hits 103?
And, of course, there is a Hits-FM - 97-7 HTZ-FM.
 

Yes they were. Did you know they were also once known as DC 103five back in their AC days?
They went from being DC 103five to being Hot 103, then Hits 103 and lastly, Zeeee 103. (or Zee One oh 3 five)

Hitz fm 97.7 was a good reason for the change to Z 103. 

While it might be that Zee one oh three is possibly a way to simulate the American Zee, keep on mind another good reason is because there was already a Zed 97 point three in the Toronto market (long gone).
Their thinking may have been not to make people think that they are them...

Last edited by Radiowiz (Sun Oct 8 8:31 pm)

 

Mon Oct 9 3:08 pm  #13


Re: Indie 88.1 The Latest To Complain It Needs A Power Boost - Or Else

RadioActive wrote:

I obviously agree with both both geo and splunge. The new theory seems to be "just do or say whatever you have to to get the licence and worry about the rest down the road."

It worked for AM 740.

It worked for CHIN, which now uses its 91.9 FM repeater (which was supposed to be reproducing its AM signal on 1540) to air separate programming there during the daytime. That means it effectively has three stations in Toronto, two on FM and all called "CHIN." (How does that work call letter-wise, exactly?)

Now Evanov/Dufferin Communications is doing the same thing and so is Indie 88.1.

This is pretty different; it doesn't change the city of license, it just increases the signal within it. And this request follows an actual change of circumstance - another station vacated the frequency making an increase possible. Why wouldn't they ask?
 

 

Mon Jun 11 3:28 pm  #14


Re: Indie 88.1 The Latest To Complain It Needs A Power Boost - Or Else

Nine months for the Commission to render a decision on this! Why so long?

 

Mon Jun 11 4:01 pm  #15


Re: Indie 88.1 The Latest To Complain It Needs A Power Boost - Or Else

Funny you should ask. They're due to finally reveal a decision on this sometime this week. 

CRTC: Anticipated releases for June 11-15

     Thread Starter
 

Tue Jun 12 10:44 pm  #16


Re: Indie 88.1 The Latest To Complain It Needs A Power Boost - Or Else

Very hard to compete with stations that have their transmitters and antenna atop the CN Tower or Commerce Court, both sites far too expensive for an independent operator, just playgrounds for the big boys with infinite funds.  You don't need full power if your antenna is high enough but it's just too cost prohibitive if you're not owned by the multimillion dollar corpse.
 

 

Wed Jun 13 11:45 am  #17


Re: Indie 88.1 The Latest To Complain It Needs A Power Boost - Or Else

Mike Cleaver wrote:

Very hard to compete with stations that have their transmitters and antenna atop the CN Tower or Commerce Court, both sites far too expensive for an independent operator, just playgrounds for the big boys with infinite funds.  You don't need full power if your antenna is high enough but it's just too cost prohibitive if you're not owned by the multimillion dollar corpse.
 

Apparently the smallest portion of CN tower revenue comes from these "tenants".   I also wonder if their "rent" has gone up over the years and by 2% allowance? 

 

Thu Jun 14 1:21 pm  #18


Re: Indie 88.1 The Latest To Complain It Needs A Power Boost - Or Else

 

Thu Jun 14 1:52 pm  #19


Re: Indie 88.1 The Latest To Complain It Needs A Power Boost - Or Else

Protectionism is alive and well north of the border.

 

Thu Jun 14 2:12 pm  #20


Re: Indie 88.1 The Latest To Complain It Needs A Power Boost - Or Else

Wow, what an unusual decision. Who’d-a-thunk that the reason they’d be turned down is to protect the new Indigenous station, the topic of another thread here? I didn’t see that coming.
 
“Rock 95 is proposing to move its antenna to a higher position at its existing transmission tower, using the same antenna location that FPR (First Peoples Radio) proposed for its new Toronto station. Approval of the present application would therefore effectively preclude the launch of FPR’s station at the technical parameters approved by the Commission … and would force FPR to find alternative technical parameters to launch its new station.”
 
And then there's this:
 
“Approval … would undermine not only the integrity of the Commission’s licensing process for FPR’s new radio station to serve the urban Indigenous community in Toronto, but also the fulfillment of the policy objectives set out in the Act relating to the needs of Indigenous peoples in Canada and to the special place of Indigenous peoples within Canadian society.”
 
If you read between the lines, it appears they’re saying the Indigenous population trumps (you should pardon the use of that word) the needs of other communities. At least in this case. That’s also a telling conclusion.  
 
But as interesting as that is, I’m even more fascinated to see what CIND’s owners do next. They told the CRTC they couldn’t survive financially if they didn’t get the power boost. Now they’re not getting it. Since no one can afford to lose money on an ongoing basis, logic dictates that Rock 95 should give back the licence and shut down the station.
 
Any bets whether that’s going to happen?  
 
Yeah, that’s what I thought, too.

     Thread Starter
 

Thu Jun 14 2:15 pm  #21


Re: Indie 88.1 The Latest To Complain It Needs A Power Boost - Or Else

Sounds like a CIDC-FM situation.   

 

Thu Jun 14 2:25 pm  #22


Re: Indie 88.1 The Latest To Complain It Needs A Power Boost - Or Else

markow202 wrote:

Sounds like a CIDC-FM situation.   

I predict the same outcome for them. Now with 100% certainty.

Under the guise of protecting the indigenous station, I believe it's protection of the Bells, Rogers and Corus' that are the Commission's primary concern.

Unbelievable.

 

Thu Jun 14 3:08 pm  #23


Re: Indie 88.1 The Latest To Complain It Needs A Power Boost - Or Else

The crtc almost always starts new 'signals' out with too little transmitting power so that failure can present itself early on as the least favourable option...but a very real option nonetheless.  The commission wants diversity...especially when it comes to voices and choices.  Too few corporations controlling the potential national mindset is a dangerous thing especially when a Trump-like weasil has the chance to somehow slither into a power position aboard the national throne.

But the crtc is more talk than action...more posturing than positioning...more bull shit than actual substantive truth.  Protecting those who endeavor to work the system and stick handle the golf ball into the cup remains priority #1.  Looks like there's still the smell of payola to contend with...it's just that the record companies aren't involved so much as are, seemingly, the former 'payees'.

The crtc is a shameful organization.  These days it's up to the government to step in and MAKE them do their job...even if the commission's 'working' mandate is almost completely bogus.  Time to re-examine the whole structure of it.  Clearly there's something rotten...just not in Denmark.

Last edited by Old Codger (Thu Jun 14 3:11 pm)

 

Thu Jun 14 3:13 pm  #24


Re: Indie 88.1 The Latest To Complain It Needs A Power Boost - Or Else

splunge wrote:

wait what? Indie88 knew what they were signing up for when they got the licence. Crying poor now speaks to their lack of business plan when they applied in the first place.

That's not how it really goes my friend.  Ask for what you actually need and you'll likely get nothing.

 

Thu Jun 14 4:14 pm  #25


Re: Indie 88.1 The Latest To Complain It Needs A Power Boost - Or Else

Old Codger wrote:

splunge wrote:

wait what? Indie88 knew what they were signing up for when they got the licence. Crying poor now speaks to their lack of business plan when they applied in the first place.

That's not how it really goes my friend.  Ask for what you actually need and you'll likely get nothing.

I agree Old Codger.

To add to that, part of an applicant "knowing what they're signing up for" is to be strategic with issues such as coverage constraints. While I know nothing of this particular case, it's not uncommon to look ahead at what may be possible to improve coverage a few years into operation.

An example was CIND working with the Erin station to move to another frequency so that CIND could expand coverage further west. It's not uncommon for these possiblities to be discussed between an applicant and their consulting engineer a year or more before they make their original filing.

I don't care for CIND but I what I do care about is diversity and choice for this mammoth market. A sanctuary from the stations operated by Bell, Rogers and Corus... A series of denied applications of this nature in recent years clearly demonstrate to me that what the Commission says and what it does are two completely different things.

Last edited by Tim Brown 2016 (Thu Jun 14 4:18 pm)

 

Thu Jun 14 4:35 pm  #26


Re: Indie 88.1 The Latest To Complain It Needs A Power Boost - Or Else

Tim Brown 2016 wrote:

what I do care about is diversity and choice for this mammoth market. A sanctuary from the stations operated by Bell, Rogers and Corus.

And you really think you'll get that with a smaller company? So they would disregard all the market research and consultant's opinions and play...? OR, would they go where the ears actually are and ditto more of the same? Let's make a distinction between those that come to this forum and the "average" listener. The "average" listener doesn't care who owns the station -- they listen "just because".

There seems to be a hate-on for anything originated by corporations here. So, I guess NOBODY patronizes any of the 5 major charter banks (and their spawn), any grocery store not owned by Loblaw-A&P-Sobies, any telecommunications company owned by Bell, Telus, Rogers (and their respective spawn), any hydro-electric company, the internet, and utility/gas company, any restaurant (far too many to mention), etc., etc., etc.,... Oh, by the way, check your RSP/RESP/RRIF,GIC, mutual/segregated funds... they are everywhere.

Hell... even many funeral parlours are mega-corporate owned. Do you wear glasses; guess what... ONE company owns most (99%) of the frames. Etc., etc., etc... like it or not, the corporations OWN you and NOT the other way around.
 

 

Wed Jul 18 8:04 am  #27


Re: Indie 88.1 The Latest To Complain It Needs A Power Boost - Or Else

It appears the powers-that-be haven’t given up the quest to raise the ‘power that be,’ despite already being turned down by the CRTC.
 
FYImusicnews.ca has a report that Indie 88.1 is sending a direct appeal out to listeners via email, urging them to write in and report their problems with the signal, so they can use that as evidence for the CRTC that a boost is a necessity.  
 
The site says the letter reads as follows:
 
“Many of our listeners say they have trouble picking up our station on the radio. We are applying for a power increase, but the CRTC needs proof that a problem exists.
 
“Here’s where you, our loyal listeners come in! You can help us build our case by sending us an email here indie@indie88.com and letting us know if you’ve ever had problems listening to the station on the radio.
 
 “Your email will help us be able to convince the CRTC to let us have our power increase, which in turn will help you listen to us more often! Talk about a win-win.”
 
I wish them luck, but I highly doubt it’s going to reverse the decision, which sounded pretty final to me.

     Thread Starter
 

Wed Jul 18 1:00 pm  #28


Re: Indie 88.1 The Latest To Complain It Needs A Power Boost - Or Else

RadioActive wrote:

It appears the powers-that-be haven’t given up the quest to raise the ‘power that be,’ despite already being turned down by the CRTC.I wish them luck, but I highly doubt it’s going to reverse the decision, which sounded pretty final to me.

As absurd as the Commission's reasoning was in the denial, it's a long shot. There was a time when denied applicants could appeal to the federal cabinet. Not sure if that option is still open. That may be what Indie is shooting for here.

 

Wed Jul 18 1:01 pm  #29


Re: Indie 88.1 The Latest To Complain It Needs A Power Boost - Or Else

RadioActive wrote:

I wish them luck, but I highly doubt it’s going to reverse the decision, which sounded pretty final to me.

Exactly. Where was all this BEFORE the "final" decision was made?
 

 

Wed Jul 18 1:48 pm  #30


Re: Indie 88.1 The Latest To Complain It Needs A Power Boost - Or Else

Radiowiz wrote:

RadioActive wrote:

I wish them luck, but I highly doubt it’s going to reverse the decision, which sounded pretty final to me.

Exactly. Where was all this BEFORE the "final" decision was made?
 

Did the applicant not take these steps in the first place?